A Light Under the Dome, with Patrick Gabridge (episode 307)

Transcript

Music Welcome to Hub History

Jake:
[0:04] Welcome to Hub History, where we go far beyond the Freedom Trail to share our favorite stories from the history of Boston, the hub of the universe. This is episode 307, a light under the dome with Patrick Gay.

Jake:
[0:19] Hi, I’m Jake in just a few minutes. I’m going to be joined by playwright Patrick Gabri, whose new show, a light under the Dome opens at the Massachusetts Statehouse on Monday, August 12th.

Jake:
[0:33] As the first in a series of works that explores the intersection between abolition and suffrage in the 19th and the early 20th centuries. A light under the dome recreates one specific moment in history. A moment that took place under the dome of the Massachusetts statehouse. 186 years ago, Angelina Grimke grew up in Charleston, South Carolina in a family of enslavers witnessing the cruelty of America’s peculiar institution under her very own roof, leaving a comfortable life behind. She risked threats and actual acts of violence to become a radical abolitionist.

Jake:
[1:10] Listen to my conversation with Patrick to learn how she got invited to speak to the Massachusetts legislature. Why her address was groundbreaking and how she tied the cause of abolition to the novel idea of rights for women. But before we talk about the play, a light under the dome, I just want to pause and say a big thank you to the Patreon sponsors whose ongoing support makes hub history possible much as I love creating this show, but I can’t do it on my own. Our sponsors take care of the show’s expenses, everything from hosting fees to transcription, to replacing the occasional USB cable or pop filter. This small group of loyal listeners commits to supporting hub history for as little as $2 or as much as $20 or even $50 a month in exchange for not much more than stickers. And of course, my heartfelt thanks.

Jake:
[2:03] Their support means that I can focus on researching, writing, recording and editing an episode of Hub History every couple of weeks without worrying about the cost of research, databases, buying books, podcast media, hosting, web hosting and security, online, audio processing tools or A I and transcription services, to everyone who’s already supporting the show. Thank you. If you’re not yet supporting the show and you’d like to start, it’s easy. Just go to patreon.com/hubor or visit hubor.com and click on the Support US link. And thanks again to all our new and returning sponsors.

Jake:
[2:43] A couple of quick housekeeping notes before we move on. First of all, you might notice that this episode is being released a few days early. That’s for two reasons. First, to give you a chance to get free tickets to a light under the dome which will run August 12th to 15th. If I waited until Sunday evening, like usual to release the show, it might be too late. The other reason is to mention that I’ll be presenting at history camp on Saturday, August 10th in one session, I’ll be talking about the world’s first captive whale. A Beluga that was exhibited at Boston’s first public Aquarium at Downtown Crossing. And in another session, I’ll be moderating a panel about how local historic sites will mark upcoming 250th anniversaries while still telling inclusive stories. If you’re interested, you can find the details and get your tickets at history. Camp.org.

Jake:
[3:39] The other housekeeping note is just a heads up. I’m in the middle of a bit of rebranding for the podcast. So you’ll start to see a new logo show up in your favorite podcast app and on social media appropriately enough for this week, it’s a picture of the statehouse dome wearing headphones. I’m also in the middle of redesigning the podcast website to look good with the new logo. So it may look a bit rough around the edges for a few weeks. All right, that’s all for housekeeping. Today. I’m joined now by Patrick Gabri. Patrick is the founder and the producing artistic director for plays in place, a theater company that specializes in creating site specific plays in collaboration with cultural institutions and historic sites. You may have seen some of his past work at Mount Auburn Cemetery, the old statehouse or Old South Meeting House.

Jake:
[4:31] Loyal listeners will remember that Patrick joined us last spring to discuss revolution’s edge, the place in place production that’s still being staged at

A Light Under the Dome

Jake:
[4:39] Old North bringing to life, the momentous decisions that were made in that room. And the hours before Paul Revere’s famous ride this time, I’ll be talking to Patrick about the new play a light under the dome which dramatizes Angelina Greinke’s landmark speech to the Massachusetts legislature in 1838 becoming the first woman to address a legislative body in America. We’ll talk about Angelina and her sister Sarah Grimke who together sacrificed a comfortable life in the South in the name of the abolitionist cause. We’ll also discuss the women of the Boston female anti slavery society who risk violent retribution to make the statehouse address possible. Patrick Gay. Welcome back to the show.

Patrick:
[5:21] Thank you very much for having me. It’s great to be here.

Jake:
[5:24] So for listeners who might not have caught it. The last time you joined us on the podcast, we were talking about a play you had written. And I think you were just about to stage for Old North that was called Revolution’s Edge. And today we’re going to talk about one of your new plays. I almost said your new play, but I feel like you always have several things in the works. Uh But I want to talk about the play a light under the dome. But before we get into the details of the new show, can you remind our listeners who you are and what plays in place is?

Patrick:
[5:54] Sure, I’m Patrick Gabri and I’m a producer and playwright and I run this company called Play In Place, which is a small theater company that partners with museums and historic sites and other cultural institutions to create site specific plays. So the work that we make is deeply rooted in space. So for example, revolution’s edge at Old North Church is really a play designed to be done at that space and really delves into the history. Not everything we do is history, but everything we do is is place based. Uh with a few small exceptions, we’ve done a play about an historic door that was kind of an object play at the old statehouse. And we’re doing a series of plays around uh cyclist Kitty Knox and the cycling craze of 1895. That’s more like a bike specific play than a site specific play. The play that we’re doing a light under the dome is going to be staged in the statehouse in the senate chamber where Angelina Grimke gave this speech in 1838. And so that room just has a lot of weight to it even though it’s the recent renovation is just gorgeous. But I think that is a particularly, just amazing site to work in. But we’ve been so fortunate. I mean, old South Meeting house, old State House, Mount Auburn Cemetery, uh Old North Church. Just so lucky.

Jake:
[7:16] That’s a good transition into a light under the dome which as you point out recreates a specific moment in February 1838 when uh Angelina and Sarah Grimke, two characters who have made a brief appearance on the podcast in the past are invited to speak in front of the legislature in the, in the senate chamber. Like you point out what was the issue on the table at the time? What was the debate that was happening that they were invited to participate in?

Patrick:
[7:42] So she was addressed there to address the notion of abolition and the request of 20,000 petitioners who had signed petitions requesting the abolition of slavery in Washington DC. We lose track of this. But it’s important to remember that the government, the federal government had limited control over slavery at the time. And so if you’re in AAA non slave state, there was only so much you could do to influence other states. But slavery was still allowed in the district of Columbia. So they’re petitioning their state government and their representatives to say, look, we don’t want our taxpayer money funding slavery in the district of Columbia. And so that was the pinch point for the petitions that were going on there. So it’s really like we want to abolish slavery there. That’s something we can do even if we don’t live there.

Jake:
[8:36] And Washington DC is the, the one place where the federal government has direct control over local law, having, having lived briefly in the DC suburbs. I know that there’s a little more home rule now, but in the 19th century, I’m sure it was all direct control.

Patrick:
[8:49] Exactly. That was the kind of focus point. It’s interesting. She had been kind of invited to speak to the legislature almost as a joke. I, I think like, well, maybe you should come talk to us someday at the statehouse because it, the notion of it was just so absurd. No American woman had ever addressed a legislative body ever?

Jake:
[9:09] Just the mere idea of a, a woman speaking to the state legislature was a joke.

Patrick:
[9:14] Yes, absurd. Like that would never happen. Why, why would you even think that? And we need to keep in mind that even the notion of a woman speaking to a mixed gendered audience. So they would call at the time, they were called promiscuous crowds, which I just kind of love. Uh So male, male and female crowds together. That was taboo like that was, and they had, she and her sister had kind of broken that taboo very publicly in Pennsylvania and New York, but especially in Massachusetts. The year prior to this, in 1837 they did a major speaking tour to 60 different towns in Massachusetts, talked to tens of thousands of people. And originally, it was supposed to be just to women and then men wanted to hear

The Grimke Sisters’ Background

Patrick:
[9:54] like, why are all our women going to hear these people speaking? Maybe I should hear too. And at first they tried to keep them out. And then as it evolved over the course of that year, it became mixed gendered audiences and, and even other women weren’t sure that that was a good thing. The play looks at Angelina Grimke, but also four other abolitionists who I’m pretty sure were present at the speech that day and had been deeply involved in the abolition movement and not all of them were totally comfortable with this Lydia Maria child is one who was a huge, huge abolitionist and proponent of women’s rights. But it’s still like, wow, speaking in front of men doesn’t feel right.

Jake:
[10:33] You want to meet the whole cast of characters, but maybe keeping the spotlight on Angelina Grimke and maybe to a lesser extent, her sister Sarah, where did they come from? How did they reach this level of fame where they were invited to speak to promiscuous as it was said at the time, audiences. Can you introduce us to the Grimke sisters?

Patrick:
[10:51] Yes. So, they’re fascinating characters. So, Angelina at this time, at the time of the play is all of 33 years old. She’s not very old. Her sister is somewhat older than her. But so they are both residents of South Carolina from Charleston, South Carolina and daughters of a prominent slave holding family.

Jake:
[11:10] I had a chance to visit Charleston a couple of years ago and it seemed like there was a historic marker on every other corner that had something to do with the Grimke.

Patrick:
[11:18] Yeah, her father and and forebearers were significantly impactful in South Carolina history and governorships and things like that, super influential slave holding family had uh multiple estates and the two of them decided they were opposed to slavery and were witnesses to.

Patrick:
[11:40] Of abuses that they wrote about. And, and they were very upfront about saying like what we witnessed was only a very minor slice of what enslaved people were going through at the time because they were not out on the plantations, viewing what was happening to farmhands. They were just watching people in their household who suffered abuse and mistreatment and torture. And so they couldn’t take it anymore. And, and so Sarah converted to Quakerism, which was kind of a very odd thing in uptight. Charleston. And then Angelina followed in her footsteps later and Sarah had been kind of a mother figure to Angelina. Angelina was the youngest of the Children.

Patrick:
[12:22] Sarah left to go stay with her sister in Philadelphia and was getting more interested in this notion of abolition. And Angelina was kind of left on her own. And the Quaker meeting was like two other old guys and Charleston. So she ultimately ended up in Philadelphia too, living with her sister. And we tend to have this kind of abolition view of Quakers as being very serious but dedicated to abolition and equal rights for all. However, there are different flavors of Quakerism for sure. In Pennsylvania and the Quakers that they were hanging out in Philadelphia still had a segregated meeting. So Sarah and Angelino were sitting with their friends who were black free black people, but still weren’t allowed to sit with everybody else. And the leadership of that particular meeting was very wary of these Southern women coming in and trying to assert some sort of leadership role. It was a difficult time for them. And ultimately, they ended up leaving and then, you know, end up moving around a lot.

Patrick:
[13:26] But kind of what changed everything was Angelina writes a letter to William Lloyd Garrison in 1835 in the summer of 1835 basically saying, keep doing what you’re doing. I think what you’re doing is amazing and this is a cause worth dying for and you know, signs her name to it. And you remember she’s a southerner from a southern family and southerners are not in general. Speaking up and standing up for abolition at all. It was very, very rare, let alone a woman. She just wrote this letter to William Lloyd Garrison at the Liberator just as her own self. But then he published it and that changes her life.

Jake:
[14:06] Which may not have been meant to be a, a public letter to the editor. More of a private fan mail almost.

Patrick:
[14:12] Exactly. It was absolutely not meant to be published. And he seized upon that without asking her and all of a sudden she can never return home again to South Carolina. She, she would never see her mother again. So their lives have been upended, but their writing is powerful. Angelina in 1836 is writing an appeal to the Christian women of the South, laying out her moral and religious arguments for abolition. And Sarah is publishing letters on the equality of the sexes and the condition of women in 1837. So now they’re in both spheres, they’re pushing for women’s rights and abolition. And so which is radical. Some of it’s very modern, some of it’s very rooted in their religion and scripture.

Jake:
[14:59] How do they move from that, you know, sort of having a presence in their church, having written material letters and then the, the pamphlets they published to being known as public speakers to the point of being invited to the legislature.

Patrick:
[15:12] They get invited by Garrison who along with Theodore Weld and a few other abolitionists are setting up essentially a speaker’s bureau or a speaker collection that are going to go out and send people out. Speaking about abolition, they’re sending out lecture tours. And uh Theodore Weld has already been doing that for a while. He was known as the most mobbed man in America. So he would go into a town, they’d speak for a few days. They get eggs thrown at them or run out of town. And um he’s a tough guy, a tough guy. And so they were training people that had been recruited by Garrison and their followers. And Angelina and Sarah were the two women in this group and got to meet everybody and they initially weren’t sure that this makes sense, but they decided to give it a try. And Angelina turned out to be a pretty compelling speaker. They were both speaking a lot. I think Angelina was more suited to it. Sarah was not as much of a public speaker but a dedicated writer. So they began this tour and, and they really liked, there’s time in Massachusetts for sure.

Jake:
[16:16] So what kind of venues were they speaking at on this tour, this 1837 tour before the speech at the legislature? Were they in public halls, like, like the Mechanics Hall or the Horticultural Hall here in Boston? Or were they in churches or, you know, where were they invited to speak?

Patrick:
[16:32] They would go anywhere that would have them. Initially, they were trying to be in churches. But then the congregational ministers got with this and were just horrified of this notion of women speaking to men and speaking about politics. And so wrote this pastoral letter that went out to all the congregational churches in Massachusetts saying, hey, this is not cool. These women need to know their place. Please don’t let them in your church to speak about abolition anymore. So then they were, they would show a town and might be in a barn or somebody’s house and it was tough, it was tough. It was a slog and different members of the Chapman family. So Mariah Wesson Chapman and some of her sisters went with them kind of helping them along. But you know, they were in horse carriages and buggies and walking from town to town and we lose track of the fact that abolition, that was changing by 37 and 38 was not the super popular movement, right? We want to look back and feel like, oh, everybody in Massachusetts was an abolitionist, but that’s not true at all. Not even close e enough. Such that in 1835 there had been a, you know, a mob action and attempted lynching on William Lloyd Garrison and the members of the Boston female anti slavery society, right in downtown Boston.

Jake:
[17:50] Which the Remkes were members of. And I think in attendance at. Right.

Patrick:
[17:54] They were not in attendance at that meeting the other people in our play Mariah Wesson, Chapman Liddy, Mariah Child, Susan, Paul Julia Williams, with the exception of child, those three other characters were at that meeting. Grips had been around, but in 35 they weren’t, they were not on the scene yet. They, they don’t come into the scene till, till the really the lecture tour of 37.

Jake:
[18:18] I’ll plug for our listeners that uh we do have a past episode 260 episode, 260 about the uh the mob of gentlemen of property and influence who broke up the meeting of the, the Boston female anti slavery society and attempted to lynch garrison in 1835. But they, the Grimke would have also witnessed violence in Philadelphia before coming to, to Boston. Right.

Patrick:
[18:45] It had happened multiple times. So there’s the meeting in 38 where they give the speech at the statehouse. But then in May of 1838 they themselves are attacked and the hall where they’re at is burned down by a mob. Angelina is actually speaking while the hall, they just, the abolitionists had just built Philadelphia Hall when they’re speaking at the second anti slavery convention of American women. So Maria Weston Chapman speaks first and then Angelina Grimke is speaking and I’ve seen transcripts of her speaking and she’s addressing the fact that the windows are being broken as they’re sitting there listening to her talk and she’s like, you know, just say the course you’ll be fine, you’ll be fine. And then, then that, that night after they’re done, the mob burns the place to the ground.

Jake:
[19:32] Sounds like they made a pretty stern stuff to stand up with the.

The Youthful Abolitionists

Patrick:
[19:38] Absolutely. They’re real bad asses. And I think the other thing we try to get to with this play and where we’re at is that there’s a lot of discussion in the, about abolitionists and we see their photos from later, but it’s all much later. Carrie Greenwich has a great book about The Grim Keys, but I’ll say her focus is on their presence and lives and shortcomings much later, right? In the 18 fifties. But this is the 18 thirties and these are young women. You know, Angelina is in her thirties. These other women in the play are in their twenties and thirties and they’re not the kind of sepia toed, wrinkled old people that we see in photographs because photography comes along much later. But we kind of think of abolitionists as like, oh, all these kind of old white do-gooder. But that wasn’t the case. These were young radical people.

Jake:
[20:27] I live in Hyde Park. And so the image I have of the Grimke is from quite a bit late in the 18 seventies as they’re trying to illegally cast votes in a local election here in Hyde Park is part of their suffrage activism 30 plus years after what we’re talking about here. So the mental image I have is not the 30 something who are speaking in uh in the 18 thirties.

Patrick:
[20:50] Exactly. And I think it’s really important for us. And I think also for young people when they are being approached by challenging political moments that might exist even as we speak. Um to, to be able to use these people as role models of, of people who are really like you said, put everything on the line to speak up and put themselves out there. These are pacifists, but it was a dangerous time when Grimke is giving her speech to the legislature in 1838 we got to keep in mind that only a few months earlier, Elijah Lovejoy had been murdered in Alton Illinois by a, you know, pro slavery mob.

Jake:
[21:33] The murder of Eli Elijah Lovejoy is a far cry from sort of the property crime that we see associated with anti abolition violence in Philadelphia, Boston, a lot of the, the northern cities. This is.

Patrick:
[21:46] What’s interesting is that the abolition movement, people like Angelina and Garrison really challenged by this because they want to use Elijah Lovejoy as an inspiration. However, they’re real pacifists. So they’re both condemning the pro slavery mob, but they’re also condemning Elijah Lovejoy because he and his men were firing guns back out at the people who were attacking them. And they’re like, well, he’s not really our martyr 100% because he was standing up with violence.

Jake:
[22:19] I guess that’s why John Brown would be so divisive a decade or so later when he starts recruiting and raising funds for his campaign in Kansas.

Patrick:
[22:28] Right? And John Brown is someone who looks at Elijah love joy and says, yo, no, that’s our model.

Patrick:
[22:33] Right. And uh Charles Turner Tory, who I’d written another play about uh someone who.

Patrick:
[22:39] Believed in direct action and, you know, was definitely not a pacifist, look, you know, wanted to actively recruit people who were enslaved to get to freedom and the garrisons um weren’t so sure about that.

Introducing Other Characters

Jake:
[22:52] Well, I don’t want to downplay the rest of the characters in the, in the play. We’ve talked a lot about Angelina Grimke in particular and Angelina and Sarah Grimke, but there are about a half dozen characters. Can you introduce some of the rest of the women who make up the cast of the show or the characters in the show?

Patrick:
[23:09] Absolutely. We have Maria Weston Chapman. It’s interesting. She’s often labeled as there’s a book about her calling her a Contessa. She married a man who was a businessman who, when his parents died, if I have this right, ended up, she ends up inheriting a great bit of wealth during this time though. She certainly had some resources for sure. But her, she came from a family that had and she also had an uncle who died who left her son money that changed her circumstances later. But she and her sisters were kind of a force in the abolition movement and she in particular was brilliant and hard working, a great writer and editor and.

Patrick:
[23:52] Known to be somewhat ruthless in the passion of this cause in which she believed totally. And I think knew how to manipulate Garrison and a bunch of other people to get what she wanted. But I love her II I, and she has her shortcomings for sure. And she didn’t always treat Frederick Douglass uh as well as she should have. There’s a whole book about that, but I think she’s someone who wields much more power than she should have been able to, again, later, she gets a lot richer. But at the time, you know, she’s living in a rented house with her sisters in Boston, um has some power, but it’s also, she’s so smart and so she’s amazing and a great organizer. So she, she’s there and, and was influential in the lecture tour and, and helping organize the lecture tour, helping organize other events, really masterful. Her, her enemies hated her, her friends loved her and she’s someone that is not as well appreciated as she should be, I think. And then Lydia Ry child was another person that’s in this play. Um fairly certain she was at the speech that day and she was, you know, one of the most famous women authors of the time, most famous authors in general had written novels, wrote a book called The Frugal Housewife is kind of a one of the earliest kind of how to family books about how to manage your household.

Jake:
[25:09] Wrote the, what we now know as the Christmas Carol over the river and through the wood, uh which was a Thanksgiving Carol at the time and subject of another past episode of ours back in 2019 episode 160, but also somebody who put her entire career on the line for her beliefs. Right.

Patrick:
[25:26] Exactly. Yeah. She, she was publishing this journal for young people, the juvenile miscellany. And was, she was the support of her family. She was married to this man David Lee child who was also an abolitionist and kind of led the way and who was also very progressive on women’s rights, but a terrible businessman and so bankrupted a few things that he was involved with before, before getting her deeply into abolition. But she, her books were kind of supporting the household and then she published an appeal in that class of Americans called Africans, which was this book about abolition. And let’s stop enslaving people. And, um, she was canceled.

Jake:
[26:04] It went as far as the Boston Athenaeum private library revoking her library card essentially for, for publishing this work.

Patrick:
[26:11] Yep, they had given her a free membership and they’re like no more. We don’t want you there. And Maria Weston Chapman helped raise money to buy her a new membership. They’re like, well, fine, we’re going to pay for one.

Jake:
[26:23] I didn’t know that part. That’s great.

Patrick:
[26:25] Yeah, they, they had a little campaign. But, yeah, the, the athenaeum is an awesome place but politics were complicated.

The Revolutionary Woman

Jake:
[26:32] Right. Right. Things, institutions change in 200 years. Yeah.

Patrick:
[26:35] Exactly. Exactly. It was a very conservative place and this woman upended everything and she, she’s really interesting. I mean, she is a woman of her time too. But she’s writing about Native American characters and Native American issues in ways that might not be in if you look at totally from a modern lunch you’re like, yeah, she’s still pretty backwards but far ahead of the rest of her peers, I would say at the time. And she got to know a lot of native peoples when she was a young woman living with her sister in Maine for a while. So, yeah, she had a really interesting background and ends up writing, you know about the history of women or about the history of black people later on. But she gave it all up to write to commit to abolition. Um and really upended her life a lot. So, but she is there in 1838 ready for this speech preparing to move to Northampton because her husband David Lee child is gonna go raise sugar beets there.

Jake:
[27:30] Which was an abolitionist crop, right? Honey and, and beet sugar were an alternative to cane sugar raised by enslaved labor.

Patrick:
[27:37] That is the plan and he is at the very forefront to give this a try. And he’s been studying in Europe to learn how to do this. He’s ordered equipment, he’s got seeds and is going to give this a try. But it also means for her, she has to give up all her Boston society friends, all the influence that she’s been wielding the literary circles of Boston even after her commitment to abolition to go out and weed beats in Northampton, which she was not excited about.

Jake:
[28:03] Yeah, it reminds me of, I think one of John Brown’s brothers, I want to say raised sheep and don’t quote me on this because wool was an abolitionist fabric as opposed to cotton and things like I think there was an undercurrent of people who were trying to make abolitionist crops viable at the time.

Patrick:
[28:19] Absolutely. Yes. There was a whole movement to not use slave generated materials within the abolition movement. But again, we’ve got to remember how unpopular it was and how small it was. This is thousands of people. It’s not tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of people in the 18 thirties.

Jake:
[28:34] And how can David Chapman’s the couple and maybe their kids weeding the beats. How can that compete economically with plantation?

Patrick:
[28:41] Exactly. Right. It can’t. And it doesn’t. And he ends up going bankrupt in the early 18 forties. But he gives it a try. I appreciate, I have a whole play about him and let him my child that we just did in Northampton about that moment in their marriage where she gets offered the ability to go edit the American anti slavery standard in New York City. This in 1841. And he’s like, look, I’ve just won an award for my sugar beets. I’m doing a lot better. We should stay here and she’s like, no, I think we should go to New York. And the answer ends up being a very modern problem in a two career family. Like they end up living in different places for a while and it’s a really tough decision for them to make Mariah Wesson Chapman actually is going to be the person who’s going to introduce Angelina cause she was going to speak with her sister Sarah. But who’s very ill. So can’t be at the speech that day, they really broke their health in the Massachusetts tour the year before Angelina had been so sick. They thought she might die. Other two people that we have, we know there were black abolitionists in the crowd. There are some letters to the Liberator thanking the sergeant at arms for getting them seats. So there’s a little bit of literary license, possibly. So Julia Williams and Susan Paul were two young black abolitionists who very well could have been there that day. They were definitely friends of the Grim Keys for sure had gotten to know them.

Patrick:
[29:57] There had been a, an anti slavery convention of American Women in New York in May of 1837 which I’d actually like to write another play about. It was possibly the first interracial meeting convention of note in America and certainly between women and it was just a fascinating group of, of people. And it’s again introducing notions of women being involved politically, both for abolition. But then you stick Sarah Grimke in there. You can start having people talk about women’s rights and all the Grimke plus Lydia marry child are, are thinking about that a little bit. And so there in New York a year before this speech, having this convention, Lucretia Mott is there. It’s really a kind of who’s who of people who are going to be involved in the, in the movement. But it was this extraordinary gathering of women and they got to keep in mind this is 10 years before Seneca Falls. So we kind of always think of the coalition, the coalescence of the women’s movement there. But it really the seeds are happening in New York and Boston in 1838 and 1837.

Patrick:
[31:07] So Susan Paul was a, a teacher, daughter of a prominent black minister. And um she’s actually writes one of the first biographies by a black writer in America. She writes one of her students, a young man. It’s a very short book. But um it’s, it’s called Memoir of James Jackson. The attentive and obedient scholar who died in Boston, October 31 1833 aged six years and 11 months. That’s the, the title.

Jake:
[31:34] I will say that this must be a remarkable child to get a biography at six years and 11 months.

Patrick:
[31:39] Yeah, it’s kind of a combination of an abolition and religious tract together. She came from a family of activists. She’s working hard as an educator at the time of the speech in 38 her father has died. She’s caring for her, her sister has died too. So she’s caring for her sister’s four young Children, plus her mother really struggling but still trying to, you know, stick up for herself and the movement and her, she led a children’s choir, black children’s choir that had an abolitionist focus that was really important in the 18 thirties, you know, around Boston. And so they were part of kind of this abolition gatherings and they would, they would sing songs and Children from like three or four years old up to 12. And then Julia Williams is a young woman who we believe actually, despite what you might read on Wikipedia was originally born into slavery. She ends up in Boston because probably the family that owned her, might have given her or her mother and her as gifts as a wedding gift to the daughter of the slave holding family. And they end up in Boston and secure their freedom. She is interesting as a person for sure, but also is at various important inflection points in the development of the abolitionist movement. So I don’t know if you’ve on the show ever talked about the Prudence Crandall School.

Patrick:
[33:00] So that was a school in Connecticut led by this woman, Prudence Crandall that was going to educate black women and the town attacked them. Uh She had been sued multiple times, ends up in jail and then the town like brutally attacks the school and essentially forces it out of business. Um There’s a museum there now and then Julie Williams, you know, her family believed in education. So she ends up going to this college called the Noise Academy in New Hampshire. And there she meets the man who will be her future hus husband Henry Highland Garnett, who’s an important activist coming down the road and also happened to have Susan Paul’s brother was there. But so this is a biracial endeavor, studying the classics in this little town. But the town rebels attacks the school and literally hitches up a team of 100 and they drag the school building down the street off its foundation and set it up like this is going to be a white school. You’re not going to go here anymore. So she’s gone through all that. And then she comes back home to Boston and is part of the 1835 mob action. And so she’s gone through a lot. She’s seen a lot by 1838 and she’s all of 27 years old. So, this is a woman

Black Abolitionists

Patrick:
[34:10] who’s seen a lot and goes through a lot for sure. Um, so those, those two people are really important.

Jake:
[34:17] Everything we’ve talked about to this point has been very focused on the abolitionist message of Angelina’s speech and this huge cast of New England abolitionists. But the play is part of a series called Suffrage in black and white. So what’s the significance of the statehouse or this moment at the statehouse for the suffrage movement?

Patrick:
[34:39] This series is looking at the intersection of race and abolition. This moment is really interesting in 1838 because not only is Angelina speaking about ab abolition to the legislative committee and the thousands of people who have crammed into the statehouse so much. So they’re like, are the balconies gonna hold all the weight of all these people who are here? And we got to keep in mind that, you know, Elijah lovejoy just been shot not too long ago. So this is feels dangerous. It’s not just like, oh, she’s coming to give a speech like, oh, something bad and violent could happen. There could be another mob action here. We don’t know, but she’s also interjects the news of women’s rights into her speech at the very beginning. She’s like, why should I be able to talk about this? Because I am a citizen and citizens care about politics and that as assertion of her rights as a citizen is key in the whole women’s rights movement, right? And this is very public and the most public of public buildings in Massachusetts saying, you know, I’m a woman and women are citizens. That is a radical idea that is going to lead down the road. And now we’re in a space in Massachusetts where we have a woman, governor and mayor of Boston and attorney general and an immense amount of power held by women. But all that traces back to this speech in 1838 where Angelina Grimke saying I am a woman and I’m a citizen.

Patrick:
[36:03] The next play we’re doing features the 1895 1st National Color Women’s Convention, which took place at the Charles Street Meeting House and was organized by Josephine Saint Pierre Ruffin, who was a black, prominent black activist and socialite.

Patrick:
[36:20] In, in her own way for sure. And so the play will actually take place at King’s Chapel Parish House standing in for the Charles Street Meeting House, which is not suitable for public performance anymore. And for Josephine Saint Pierre Ruffin’s house. And so this was the first major political convening of black women and took place in Boston, right on Beacon Hill. Miranda De is writing that play. We’re and that’s we’re hoping that one will be staged next summer at King’s Chapel Parish House is the plan. And that’s a great cast of eight strong black women who a lot of people will

Seeds of the Women’s Movement

Patrick:
[36:55] never have heard of before. Trying to kind of determine how politically connected, socially.

Patrick:
[37:03] Aware black women should be approaching the movement for not abolition anymore, but for black rights and women’s rights. And how, how do they position themselves there in a very complicated moment where a lynchings are on the rise anti black sentiment is very, very strong in America and getting worse in 1895. So it’s a really terrible time. But to see these women gather together is, is an amazing moment and it’s a really terrific play. And then the third play is in 1915, there was a statewide referendum on the right for women to vote that failed miserably in Massachusetts. 2 to 1 in Massachusetts, Pennsylvania, New Jersey and New York. It shocked the movement a bit, I think and shocked the Massachusetts movement. But there was a rally two days later that took place at Fano Hall. And our play is about this rally that had a live brass band and our show will have a live brass band.

Patrick:
[37:57] It’s really about the moments kind of leading up to that rally of everyone in the movement trying to figure out what do we do now?

Patrick:
[38:05] And there’s the older guard, they’re kind of like stick with the state strategy. That’s the way we should go. There’s the younger guard saying, well, the national strategy might work better. But the problem with the national strategy is it’s aligning themselves with a group of suffrage women who are a lot more racist and using racist appeals to advance their cause. So in some ways, shifting from that strategy from the state to national means, throwing Black women to Massachusetts and elsewhere under the bus, these plays are in different spots but showing that Boston’s place in the suffrage movement is much bigger than people think. It’s not just all revolutionary history here.

Jake:
[38:41] Uh it’s interesting that so many of both the black and white suffrage activists a few decades later come into the movement through abolition. How do groups like the Boston female anti slavery society and similar activist groups? How do they sort of foster the beginnings of the, the suffrage movement?

Patrick:
[39:00] Yeah, I think they become a gateway though. It’s essential that they’re already speaking of it at this time. So Sarah Grimke is writing about women’s rights and roles already in 1837 and 1838. So I think there’s two things that are happening. One is women are organizing politically. So they’re learning to fight for a political cause. They’re developing political skills. They’re learning to write political tracts and understand the mech for how you make things happen socially as well as politically. So because Garrison’s movement is a political movement, but intensely trying to be a polit in a way in that he is saying, you know, you shouldn’t vote. The constitution is a racist document, enslavement document.

Patrick:
[39:44] We’re not going to get involved with politics and that causes a splintering of the abolition movement that is happening in the 18 thirties and 18 forties between the ministers and politicians like the Tappan brothers and, and James Burney who are like we should start a political party, the Liberty Party and Garrison’s like, no, no, we can’t be involved in the political system. It’s, it’s only moral suu and then that splintering affects the Boston female anti slavery society. So they splinter also along some of these same lines. What’s kind of nice about our play is that we’re kind of writing in 1838. They’re kind of at their peak moment, which seems, sounds weird so far ahead

The Decision to Move

Patrick:
[40:23] of the Civil war and the tumult of the 18 fifties. But in 18 thirties, the alas movement has a lot going on and the Boston female anti slavery society is pretty united and have gone through a lot together. And at this moment in 1838 they’re all still friends. They’re also speaking and working together. But in just a few years, that movement is going to totally splinter apart. The philosophy military slavery society splits into two factions and the Chapmans are on one side and then there are more religious members on the other side. People like Susan Paul get kind of stuck trying to understand how to navigate it down the middle.

Jake:
[41:00] It sort of foreshadows the fractures that happened later on in the 18 seventies, 18 eighties after the civil war over whether we can, can walk and chew gum and focus on suffrage now versus civil rights for, for black men.

Patrick:
[41:14] Exactly. Yeah, these practices are happening over and over and over again, which I think is useful and illustrative to us in any, any time you’re getting involved even with a modern social movement is to understand that, the history of social and political movements is one of ups and downs political personal divides happen all the time. A lot of times it’s about use of violence or direct action. There’s all kinds of things or around religion that pattern repeats over and over and over again. In American History. We will see it again. I am sure.

Jake:
[41:46] Coming back to a light under the dome. A little more specifically, I I know from our past interview that you like to weave the dialogue out of the character’s actual words as much as you can or at least be inspired by them. What could you draw on or what, how did you try to bring the actual words and personalities of the characters into this play?

Patrick:
[42:04] Good question. And this is a, this play is structured very differently from a lot of my other pieces in that the moment of the day, you know, she gives a speech and it, it goes and she gives it and that’s over, right? So the, that’s, that’s fine. But we have some complications there. And that one, we need a lot more action than that in a way. Uh We’d like to have more than just her voice. And also the speech doesn’t exist.

Patrick:
[42:29] So that’s kind of a problem. We have the beginnings of it which I have used liberally in, in the play. What I ended up using doing was kind of recreating the text of the speech. What I thought it could have been using some of her other writings. So her appeal to the women of the South, even looking at some of Sarah’s writings around women’s rights and then some of their other writings and looking at stories that she with Theodore Weld and Sarah write a book kind of documenting every newspaper article they could find about lynchings and slavery abuse and things that and then also approached different people for their personal accounts. And so Sarah and Angelina both had accounts of their own lives in that book. So I was able to draw all that stuff together to figure out this is how the speech would likely be. And then I’m weaving dramatically moments where she’s breaking out of the speech and we’re talking with her and her friends who are there supporting her. They’re each talking about their own struggles within the abolition movement. And that research is coming from Mariah Wesson Chapman and Lydia Maria Child left behind a lot of letters. We kind of understand some of their feelings.

The Anti-Slavery Convention

Patrick:
[43:38] So I able to use some text from that information about.

Patrick:
[43:42] Julia Williams and Susan Paul are not as plentiful, but they are mentioned in letters I know about their participation in the New York City Conference the year before Julia Williams went. Susan Paul was supposed to be delicate but didn’t go and possibly could have been because she just couldn’t afford to go. She didn’t have enough money. And, but we have a letter for Lydia Mariah Child on Susan Paul’s behalf trying to get a wealthy abolitionist to help, help her out financially. So little tidbits like that, piecing them together, kind of help figure out who these people were and how they get together this particular play. And actually the whole series has no men in it. It’s all the women’s side. And so this piece is kind of weird and it’s not that we’re not hearing it back and forth between the people they’re against. But the entire society that they’re in is a sufficient protagonist and antagonist to them, that it’s ok. I think if we hear their side of the story because I think we get a sense of who they’re fighting against.

Jake:
[44:46] Yeah. And basically every source letter, speech book that we’ve read from, from the time is the other side.

Patrick:
[44:52] Exactly. Exactly. So, yeah, it’s a differently structured piece, but I think it’s going to be really effective. The space itself has a lot of weight, which is fun and they’re fun and interesting people. And I just really love having them together in a room as they’re talking about the struggles. And I just even listening to Julie Williams go through her struggles at Prudence Rannells Academy and Noise Academy and all this stuff. And wow, it’s like, how do you get through this and how do you deal with being born into slavery and not telling people about it? You know, I think this is a guard. This is a secret for quite a while. Exactly. Especially in this kind of, you know, upper middle class, Boston culture where, you know, black women are gaining some little social access. But even at the Boston female anti slavery society meetings, seating was still segregated by race.

Jake:
[45:46] Has taken a long time for me to, to come to terms with the fact that abolitionists in many cases were still segregationists.

Patrick:
[45:55] I still, when I, every time I bump into it again, I’m like, what? That doesn’t, that does not compute. But again, the struggle against slavery is not the same thing as inclusion for people of color.

Jake:
[46:08] Well, coming back again to the, you mentioned the weight of the space where the the play is performed. I I just want to reiterate. So this is going to be seen in the Senate chamber of the statehouse, right.

Patrick:
[46:18] Yep. So audiences will actually get to sit in the desks of some of the current senators right there, there are 40 desks in a nice circle. And so the play takes, we’re going to add a whole bunch of chairs so we can see about 100 people a time. They’ll be jammed into the floor just like they were that day. And then these five women are there interacting with the people that would have been there that day, But also with the audience talking to them about their stories. At the time, this chamber was actually the house chamber. So it would have looked different from what we’re going to see it. But still I feel it’s hard not to feel like the echo of her speech doesn’t somehow linger in the dome that’s above them.

Jake:
[46:55] The thing is that if listeners want to see a light under the dome, they kind of need to act fast. Can you give us the details of when? Oh, I guess we just covered where looking at my notes, it says when and where, but we just talked about where can you tell us a bit about when the play is going to be staged and how people should take action to get tickets and become part of it?

The Play’s Venue

Patrick:
[47:19] This is a project we’ve created for the National Park Service, which is very important for us to mention. And we’re very grateful, grateful to the National Parks of Boston for making this all happen. So that also allows tickets to be free, which is awesome. It’s going to run August 12th to 15th. So it’s a Monday through Thursday. We have shows twice a day at three o’clock and 630 that’s it. It’s a very short run. Our shows have a history of selling out really quickly right now. There are definitely still seats. Hopefully there’ll still be a few left and you know, there will be a waiting list and with free shows, people, there’s always no shows. So I think it’s good to get on the waiting list for any show that you think you might want to be at.

Jake:
[47:56] So f free doesn’t mean just show up, it still means get a ticket in advance.

Patrick:
[48:00] You must have a reservation to get in, in advance because it’s in the statehouse in San, you got to go through security and find your way there. It’s, it’s an amazing building, but I think what’s cool about doing it in this space is that it’s a lot of marble at big tall Echoey ceilings in this giant statehouse that belongs to all of us that many of us don’t ever go to or you went to when you’re in your middle school field trip or whatever. But it is the people’s building. And I think to show these kinds of stories in these spaces where they happened in the statehouse that matter to Massachusetts, it really brings a new kind of life for this space, which is obviously, as you can imagine a difficult space for us to get access to because they use it for very important things more important than, than our little play for sure.

Jake:
[48:45] Are they? How dare they.

Patrick:
[48:45] Um And we are very grateful to the Senate President, Karen Spilka for allowing us to be in there and the whole statehouse staff.

Jake:
[48:54] If our listeners want to find out more about the play or about the whole Suffrage in Black and white series, or if they want to find out more about you, where should they look for any of those things?

Patrick:
[49:05] If they go to plays and place.com, that is the best place. There’s lots of links to all the shows that we’ve got up. This is our last show for the year, but we have probably nine different projects in active development right now over the coming years. So there’s places all over the place. So if you get on our mailing list, that’s a smart thing to do. But you can reserve tickets through our website, the National Park Service. If you go to National Parks of Boston also has a great website with a lot of this history on it. And again, you can sign up, there’s going to be a Women of Beacon Hill History tour between some of the performances, which is very exciting and there are going to be some American sign language interpreted shows. I believe the first and last evening shows will be a sl interpreted. So there’s lots going on around this play.

Finding More Information

Patrick:
[49:49] But Place and place.com is a great way to go.

Jake:
[49:51] And we’ll be sure to link to Place and place.com and all the other info you just mentioned in the show notes this week. Um Patrick, I just want to say thanks for joining us again on the podcast today.

Patrick:
[50:04] Well, thanks for having me. It was great talking with you and it’s just fun to explore Boston history.

Jake:
[50:09] Well, that about wraps it up for this week to learn more about Patrick Gay Bridge and a light under the dome. Check out this week’s show notes at hubor.com/three 07. First and foremost, if you want to have a chance to see this play act fast, there are eight performances scheduled from August 12th to the 15th, but tickets are limited. We’ll have a link where you can reserve your free ticket in the show notes this week. I’ll also have links to the websites for Patrick and plays in place as well as a resource assembled by the National Park Service. With more information about Angelina Grimke, Julia Williams, Garnett, Lydia Mariah Child, Susan, Paul Maria Weston Chapman, and the role of the Massachusetts statehouse in the fights for abolition and suffrage. Plus, if our conversation sparks your interest, I’ll include links to our past podcast episodes about Lydia Mariah Child, the mob that nearly lynched William Lloyd garrison, the women who are arrested at the statehouse for demanding suffrage in 1919, and the Grimke sisters later life in Hyde Park.

Jake:
[51:16] If you want to get in touch with us, you can email podcast at hubs history.com. We are Hub History on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram and most active on Twitter. If you’re on Mastodon, you can find me as at Hubor at better dot Boston or you can go to hubor.com and click on the contact us link. If you were one of the six people who regularly listen to the show on Google podcasts. Well, you might have noticed that Google podcasts no longer exists to replace it. We have a podcast feed on youtube music. Now, at least until Google decides to drop that service as well, just go to hubor.com and click on the subscribe link to get the new youtube feed as well as Spotify, Amazon music and some of the other popular apps. If you subscribe on Apple podcasts, please consider writing us a brief review. If you do drop me a line and I’ll send you a hub history sticker as a token of appreciation.

Jake:
[52:18] That’s all for now. Stay safe out there listeners.