Rebels at Sea: Privateering in the American Revolution, with Eric Jay Dolin (episode 249)

Transcript

Music

Jake:
[0:05] Welcome to hub history where we go far beyond the freedom trail to share our favorite stories from the history of boston, the hub of the universe.
This is episode 2 49 Rebels at Sea. privateersmen in the american revolution.
With Eric Jay Dolin Hi, I’m jake in just a few moments, I’m going to be joined by Eric Jay Dolin author of the new book Rebels at Sea, which will be in bookstores everywhere.
On May 31st, we’re going to discuss the role of privateers in the american revolution with a special focus on the many privateersmen who sailed out of boston or New England,
privateersmen civilian ships that were outfitted for war by optimistic investors with volunteer crews who are willing to fight for their share of the profits from the mouth of boston harbor to the very shore’s of Britain.
These private warships sailed in search of rich english merchant men while risking the lives and freedom of their crews,
while their role is mostly forgotten today, eric will explain how privateersmen helped turn the tide of revolution in favor of the americans,
and we’ll discuss how our modern habit of associating privateersmen with piracy leads to a distaste for the privateers who helped win our independence.

[1:21] But before we talk about privateersmen The american revolution. It’s time for a word from the sponsor of this week’s podcast,
Liberty and co sells unique products inspired by the american revolution and many of them have themes tied to the historical events, locations and people of boston’s past.
Among those themes is a white banner with a large green pine tree under the words and appeal to heaven.
Known commonly as the pine tree flag or the flag of the massachusetts naval militia.
This banner was used unofficially by the fleet of ships that George Washington personally funded after arriving in boston in the summer of 17 75.
It was used by the state navy that massachusetts fielded At least until it was decimated in the penobscot expedition that we discussed in episode 25 and it was unofficially used by countless privateersmen sailed from massachusetts during the revolution.

[2:15] At Liberty and Co.
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[3:04] I’m joined now by Eric Jay Dolin Eric’s the author of 15 books, including a history of the us China trade history of whaling and an environmental history of boston harbor.
His 2019 book, Black Flags Blue Waters, the epic history of America’s most notorious pirates.
Was a finalist for the Julia Ward Howe award and a featured pick at the mass historical Society.
Eric joins me now to talk about his most recent book Rebels at Sea, which shines a spotlight on piracy is more respectable cousin.
The privateer Rebels at sea is available for preorder now and it will be in bookstores everywhere. On May 31 Eric Jay Dolin welcome to the show.

Eric:
[3:47] Thanks for having me.

Jake:
[3:49] We’re here to talk about your new book Rebels at Sea, which is all about privateersmen The american revolution and I know you have a previous book, Black Flags Blue Waters about piracy.
And it seems like whenever people talk about privateersmen it’s always in relation to piracy, some people say well, privateersmen was legalized piracy or something like that.
So I’m wondering for our listeners, can you give us a definition of privateersmen that doesn’t refer to the word piracy.

Eric:
[4:16] During time of war, a government can issue letters of marque which are legal documents which give private vessels the right to arm themselves go forth upon the ocean, attack the enemies of the,
country or entity from which they sail and if they capture,
enemy ships, those become prizes that are taken back into ports.
And if in fact it is a legal prize, The privateer owners and the privateersmen the people who crew the privateer get to split the proceeds of that prize, the sale of the ship and the cargo,
50 50,
in the pure definition of privateersmen They are not pirates.
They are not going out like pirates and just marauding and attacking any ship upon the ocean.
Privateersmen is a, was a legally accepted manner with which a country,
could expand its power on the sea during times of war by essentially creating a militia at CIA, legally sanctioned militia at sea.
The reason that so many people refer to private tears as pirates,
is because prior to the american revolution, there were many instances when countries such as England and France and others issued letters of marque.

[5:43] Made private merchant ships privateers,
and they went out and they pillaged other country ships at a time when,
the issuing country was not at war with the ships that the country uh, that the ships are being attacked was so it was basically like Sir Francis drake England,
he was issued a letter of marque and he was one of Elizabeth’s queen Elizabeth.
See dogs, he was issued a letter of marque to go attack spanish shipping. The problem is many times his letter of marque was issued at a time at which England and Spain were nominally at peace. They weren’t at war.
So he was really nothing more than a de facto pirate.
And one last thing I want to say, the connection between privateersmen and piracy.
That’s in part how I came to write this book after I wrote Black Flags, Blue Waters, I went out and gave,
bunch of talks and invariably during the question and answer period, people would ask about privateersmen and they would either say in their question that, you know, privateersmen really pirates do you talk about them?
And I would have to make the distinction because even back then, although I didn’t know a huge amount about privateersmen.

[7:03] It’s not enough to just simply say that privateersmen was licensed piracy, you have to take into account the period that you’re considering,
and the actual performance of those privateers.
So all of those questions while I was talking about pirates that linked to privateersmen got me more interested in this whole thing about privateersmen,
So that’s sort of a very long answer to your short, your short question.

Jake:
[7:34] Bringing it into the Revolutionary era, we’re recording this interview right smack dab in the middle of what I consider the massachusetts revolutionary season.
We’re in between the anniversary of the battles of Lexington and concord that started the war and the battle of bunker hill.
So with that in mind, how quickly did massachusetts turn to privateersmen What was it about,
the grievances that the people of massachusetts had at the time or their experiences in earlier colonial wars that pushed the provincial congress to debate issuing letters of marque.

Eric:
[8:06] Massachusetts was the origin of the privateersmen impulses in the colonies.
After the battles of Lexington and concord bunker hill, the continental Congress recommended that the colonies,
pulled together navies in effect to defend themselves against the increasing attacks from,
Britain and the potential for future stacks.
And a lot of the Mariners and merchants owners and politicians in massachusetts wanted to fight back at sea because a lot of the ship’s massachusetts ships were being captured,
and the attacks were mostly taking place at seeing in addition to the siege of boston so early on,
people in massachusetts, there were some freelance privateersmen Even before letters of marque were being issued, there were individuals who owned merchant ships.
They armed their ships and they went out and they started attacking some of the british ships along the coast, causing a lot of problems.

[9:09] And they were starting to urge the Provincial Congress in Massachusetts to,
issue letters of Marque, give us legal uh permission to defend ourselves and really to attack the British.
So in the summer and the fall of 1775, there was mounting discussion within massachusetts about unleashing privateers.

[9:35] And this is something that the people in massachusetts knew a lot about because during the seven years war, the french and indian war, the war of Jenkins’s ear other wars,
massachusetts, men had launched, privateersmen gotten into the privateersmen business.
So the people of massachusetts knew what privateersmen was all about and they thought it could be an effective way of defending themselves against british aggression.
And this discussion kept percolating in september and october and finally, the provincial congress decided to take it seriously and they appointed Elbridge Gerry,
who comes later will be a vice president of the United States, but he was born and raised in Marblehead where I live, where I’m standing right now as I speak to you and he knew very well how uh.

[10:25] How impacted the maritime maritime commerce had been because of all the actions taken by Britain and he felt there was a need to respond and that privateersmen would be an excellent way to respond.
And the provincial congress knew of his background, knew of his interest.
He had been one of the people that have been fomenting for privateer ng.
So they appointed him to come up with a privateer ng law, which he ultimately did.
It was passed by the provincial congress and on november First of 1775 and it was, we were the first colony Massachusetts was the first colony to authorized privateersmen.

[11:06] And soon after that privateersmen getting letters of marque and they were going out and started to attack british shipping,
And most importantly, they captured probably close to 2000 British ships and that’s really what had a major impact on the course of the war.

Jake:
[11:25] Yeah, when you compare that to the size and effectiveness of the Continental Navy, it makes private hearings seem a little less like a sideshow to the other stories of the Revolution.

Eric:
[11:34] A lot of the histories of the american revolution.
Focus and rightly so on land battles, famous people like George Washington Nathaniel greene. And you know, Lafayette?
And they also focus a lot of attention on the Continental Navy because this is when our Navy was in effect born.
But when you look at what really happened during the american Revolution, the Continental Navy, compared to privateersmen ring was not nearly as effective.
The Continental Navy had some high points. You know, there was the john paul jones and the bonhomme richard attacking the serapis, which was a great psychological victory.
But in real terms, it was a sort of a pyrrhic victory.
And john Adams, who was a big fan of the Navy as well as private tearing,
said in 17 81 when he looked back at the Continental Navy’s record where so many of them,
either sank, were captured, were burned or didn’t have very effective cruises, he said it was all they could do but cry when he thought about this history of the proud Continental Navy.
But if you’re going to give them due credit, you absolutely also need to give credit to the,
privateersmen which were more numerous, more effective and I think had a greater impact on the outcome of the war than the Continental Navy.

Jake:
[12:58] And speaking of John Adams and speaking to the impact of privateersmen that November 1775 privateersmen law in Massachusetts, he says, is one of the most important documents in history.

Eric:
[13:10] About 2030 years after the American revolution, he was reflecting as many of the founders were on their, their their contribution to american history and trying to figure out what had actually happened during the american revolution.
Why did we win? And and his comment was that the Declaration of Independence was what he called the french word of bomb brian or a trifle compared to the privateersmen law of november 1st.
In terms of its impact. Again, I think he would say that the Declaration of Independence is quite important.

Jake:
[13:40] A little revisionist Maybe.

Eric:
[13:45] One of the reasons that the massachusetts law was so important is that it engendered a couple of other states to pass their own privateersmen laws, but it really increase the pressure on the Continental Congress.
Two allow for the issuance of letters of marque from the continental level, not just the state level.
And once Congress uh did that On March 23 of 1776.
Then all the letters of marque issued after that time essentially were continental letters of marque, no longer state level letters of marque.

Jake:
[14:26] Locally here, in in boston or in the boston area, when that privateersmen law of 17 75 went into effect, of course, that was being issued from the provincial Congress in,
Watertown because boston and the port of boston were occupied still.
So for those first few months, um, and the first acts of privateersmen under the new law, where were the massachusetts privateersmen sailing from?

Eric:
[14:51] Newburyport was very big. Salem at that point probably had a couple, Probably in the end of 1775.
Into the early months of 1776, there may have been on the order of 20 or maybe 30 privateersmen that issued from Massachusetts, but once the continental Congress got involved, it really exploded.
One individual said that the colonies basically went privateersmen mad, and that’s not a bad description of what of what happened.

Jake:
[15:26] And of course, john Adams wrote everything down throughout his life.
So he’s a great source, you can say that Thousands of schemes for privateersmen aeroflot in the American imagination, I think that’s early 1776. So it certainly was very front and center in his mind, at least.

Eric:
[15:42] Yes, John Adams is the number one cheerleader for privateersmen during the American Revolution.
Absolutely. And it is amazing how much he put down on paper and we are fortunate as historians and readers and just people interested in the american revolution that he did.
He always had a a way with words.

Jake:
[16:03] Of course, when the Continental Congress finally takes his and everyone else’s advice and starts issuing letters of marque, it’s another local boy whose signature is on him at that point, it’s john Hancock’s signature on the the instructions for the commanders of privateers.
So what what were the rules that they were sailing under as continental letters of marque?

Eric:
[16:24] The main rules were that they were not to treat any of their captured british prisoners poorly.
No, no beating, no verbal harassment, treat them as you know, you would want to be treated if you were captured by the british,
they also had to bring all their prizes back to a local ports where they could be adjudicated to determine if they were legal prizes and if they weren’t.
And there were cases where people brought in privateersmen brought in a british ship,
and it was determined by the court that, you know, this british ship was not engaged in the kind of commerce, it was not bringing munitions for example, to the british army or it was not delivering,
only, you know, british goods.
It was really engaged in neutral trade or trade. It was not even a british ship.
Sometimes they would capture a dutch or other ship that had some british goods on board and they say, ah ha, you’re communicating,
in a mercantile way with the enemy, you’re a valid prize.
But sometimes the court would determine no, no, they were, they were neutral at the time. This these goods were there. So that was, that was part of it.

Jake:
[17:43] An example of the importance of having a court to adjudicate whether a prize was legal or not. At one point, a Continental privateer captured one of john Hancock’s ships.
You know, he had a merchant fleet, but somebody brought in a prize, and it was later turned out to be owned by john Hancock, so it was not considered a legal prize.

Eric:
[17:59] Yes, privateersmen didn’t always do the right thing. Sometimes intentionally, sometimes unintentionally.
And there are a number of cases in which privateersmen attacked american ships and tried to claim them as transporting british goods, not in compliance with,
you know, the rules of war that we were operating under.
And and when you’re on the ocean, you don’t know immediately the ship that you’re confronting.

Jake:
[18:27] And there are all kinds of false signaling back and forth. Or, you know, you put up a British flag to get close to a British vessel and you get close and fire a shot and run up three American flags. And then the other ship takes down its British flag and puts up an American. So who are you really dealing with out there? Right?

Eric:
[18:36] Right.

[18:42] That was really a big problem. The rooster care, The use of the false flag because american privateers were doing that.
The british were doing that. The french were doing that other other nations did that because if they could signal that they were one thing that wouldn’t be attacked that’s much better than singling something that they would be attacked.
So trying to figure out who you were, who you were engaged with was very difficult.
And often times the ships would come close on board and they would call to each other, who are you?
And sometimes the privateer would demand under the muzzles of their cannons that the ship that their next to send some men over and with your papers so we can determine who you are and what your cargo is.
And there were a few times when two american privateers almost came to blows before they suddenly realized, hey, we’re both on the same team.

Jake:
[19:32] Yeah, the confusion out there had to be something. So you mentioned the challenges of, of recruiting for privateer vessels alongside recruiting to the Continental Army, the Continental Navy, and having just laborers at home.
And in the book, you quote an ad in 17 80 by the commander of a ship called the Dean who was recruiting, recruiting in boston for folks who would find a hearty welcome john Hancock’s wharf.
So whatever you could just tell me a little bit about that ad and what we can glean from that about who was serving on massachusetts privateers, How they were compensated, What the difference between the crews and the officers were. Just, what can we gather from an ad like that?

Eric:
[20:14] Well. The first thing that a ship owner, a merchant who wanted to transform his merchant ship into a privateer.
The first thing that he had to do was to get a captain and crew.
Now in many instances, these merchants were very familiar with captains of ships that were very able and oftentimes they would directly contact one of those captains and say, hey, would you like to captain my privateer?
But for the crewmen on board, the usual way of obtaining them was to place an ad in the local paper or to put handbills up and have this quote unquote, hearty welcome,
where they would invite people to sign on to the privateer and at the same time they would ply them with liquor, grog and cherry toddies and rum and other stuff.
And they tout the great potential of becoming a privateer. Oftentimes in the ad itself, it said, you know, here you have an opportunity to make your fortune.
And they would also, the owners would often brag about the commodious nature of the privateer and the quality of the fair on board, which is often quite an exaggeration.
It was quite miserable being on a 70 ft ship with 100 and 10 other men roaming around the atlantic ocean.
So, but they would, they would lure these people in and they didn’t really, they didn’t have to convince them too much because the incentives were there.

[21:40] And there’s a quote in the book where I talk about this guy in new Hampshire, who was saying how so many of his friends young men in their late teens would just get up and leave the farm or leave their family without even telling them where they were going,
Go down to one of the ports, sign into privateersmen make their fortune and then come back six months later, either with money in hand or I had a bad voyage and people all the time wondering where they went.
So it was sort of like a gold rush of sorts of people heading to the ports to sign on to privateers.

Jake:
[22:14] When you’re recruiting for a privateer like that, obviously there’s a there’s a profit motive for everybody involved. But was that different? Was the compensation different for a crew versus the officers on board?

Eric:
[22:26] Even on a pirate ship, and they would have the articles of agreement where the booty would be divided pretty much equally among everybody.
However, the captain and the quartermaster, and sometimes the um doctor, if he was on board, we’ll get a few more shares.
And certainly with privateersmen Captain, the first mate, the higher ups, they got more, they may get eight shares or 10 shares, whereas the lowly privateer,
who’s doing a lot of the fighting in some cases would only get one share, but still it was fairly equally distributed.
And if you were a strict privateersmen not a letter of mark, it was no no prey, no pay, no prizes, no money.
And but one thing that’s really important to adhere, and I have a very long section in the book about it, because it’s something that constantly comes up when people talk about privateers, they paint them as being these greedy people who didn’t have any republican virtues.
They were not doing anything for civic reasons, for the the for patriotic reasons for the cause of their country.
And what I think I made quite clear in the book, and I think it’s very persuasive and I believe, is that the privateers were not that much different from other people operating at the same time.
You have to remember that the Continental Navy, those people on board Continental Navy ships, they in effect, we’re glorified privateersmen many instances and they went out in search of prizes, as did john paul jones,
and they got a cut of the profits and the.

[23:53] Advertisements to get people to join Continental Navy ships often made special mention of the opportunity to gain your fortune a massive fortune and they were sometimes paid,
signing bonuses to come on. So there’s a money incentive there.
And in the Continental Army, while the people that came out originally during the battle of bunker Hill and the siege of boston and the militia,
they were fired by patriotic zeal as the war went on, Everybody realized that without money in their pockets, there were a lot of desertions and Congress had to offer,
land and promised that they were going to pay.
And George Washington and other leaders were constantly saying how patriotism alone and republican virtues is not going to keep our army together.
They need to be paid. There needs to be an opportunity for profit.
People operate on both levels and the people in Congress who voted overwhelmingly for privateersmen.

[24:52] They knew that it was helping the cause and in some cases enriching,
themselves and if they didn’t think that it was that there was a benefit to privateersmen they could have ended the practice, but they never seriously considered that.
And they were people who were clear eyed enough to realize that patriotism and profit don’t have to be at odds.
They could be two sides of the same coin. So I’m not going to argue that all privateersmen were burning with patriotic zeal. That’s certainly not the case.
Neither were all Continental Army or naval men,
but there’s no doubt based on their writings and just the fact that they probably reflected the same sentiments as a larger population, that a number of private tears had a combination of motives for going into that line of work.
Part of it was out of patriotism, fighting for their country, gaining their freedom from,
the despotic british, but part of it was also to earn a living because you had to and if you if you,
brought back a prize and you earn some money from that, that helped not only you, but your family and your larger community, so.

[26:10] I was just interested in that. A lot of people will just sort of blithely say, oh, privateersmen They’re pirates. And I’ve already dealt with that issue.
And the blithely say, privateersmen They were just in it for the money and that’s kind of dirty and low and you know, we shouldn’t really respect them well.
If you look, if you look carefully at all the other people that were engaged in the american revolution, not just the people fighting it on the ground, but the leaders who are running it.

[26:36] The smart people and the honest people realize that both profits and patriotism could be alive in the same individuals and were important forces,
during the entire, entire war.
So if you’re going to importune the motives of privateersmen you have to impugn the motives of everybody else that was operating around them, which often events the combination of motives to their actions.

Jake:
[27:05] And you give plenty of examples in the book of privateersmen who are being held, taken prisoner and then being held in just horrific conditions on the Jersey or one of the prison hulks in new york harbor, given the opportunity to,
get out of really the, some of the worst prison conditions imaginable by joining a british crew,
who refuse on patriotic grounds.
So it certainly, um, sort of reflects the principle behind the profit.
But speaking of profit, it wasn’t just the crews and officers.
Somebody had to be fronting the money to lease or buy a ship outfitted with 30 or 60 guns, hire these crews initially, especially here in Massachusetts who was providing the financial backing to set up privateersmen.

Eric:
[27:49] The main financial backing came from the people whose ox is being gored, basically.
The merchants, their, their fleets had to be permanently more than their ports in the beginning of the revolution because the,
the british were on the open ocean and we’re really caught putting a crimp in american commercial activity.
So all of these merchants who suddenly had there fleets inactive, we’re not earning money.

[28:19] Realized that they could be put to good use as privateersmen So they dug deep into their often very deep pockets to outfit these privateersmen vessels.
And as you mentioned, one of the main things that was required is sometimes merchant vessels, even in the,
mid 17 hundreds, often had a couple of cannons on board at least, and they had muskets and there were some armaments, but they weren’t uh, fierce fighting machines, But to be a good privateer,
you often had to have the ability not only to defend yourself,
if a british privateer, a british man of war were to attack, but also to be threatening enough and be able to attack another ship to gain it as a prize.
So one of the main things that these merchants had, the,
pay for was reconfiguring the main deck, putting bulwarks up holes in them for cannons, buying the cannons, buying the ammunition, buying the powder.
So without the merchants who had the deep pockets, privateersmen wouldn’t have been able to get off the ground.

[29:26] So and they benefited directly because of their ships came back,
like Elias Haskett Derby of Salem, probably one of the most famous men during this era, both before, during and after the american revolution,
there were 138 privateersmen went forth from Salem and,
something like 40 or 50 of them, he either owned or had a part ownership in,
and some of those ships were already merchant ships before the war, but one of the most famous was the grand turk was a huge 300 ton ship that Elias Haskett Derby had built specifically for privateersmen,
and had a huge number of cannons on board and was successful and then later became,
an integral part of the expanding china trade after the american revolution was over and americans were finally able to sail to china, engage in that commerce.
So you had these merchants transforming their own ships into privateers, sometimes building new ships, which by the way benefited greatly the local economy.
Another knock on effect of privateersmen employing ship rights and others who had to build these ships and then you also had,
the people who are the Victuals who were supplying the ships with all their food and and and other things that were needed on board.
So privateersmen as one early historian said, was one of the biggest industries during the american revolution.

[30:50] Because it wasn’t just the men on board who signed on to be privateers, but think of all the other individuals who were involved in the broader endeavor from the building of the ships, the supplying of the ships.
Even when they came back into ports, merchant owners would take out ads in local newspapers announcing the sale of this prize or that prize.
Well, the newspapers got a little bit of money for that. Advertising lawyers made a killing at this time because when the privateer owners were taken to court, when somebody said, hey, you took the wrong ship,
or that’s not that that’s a ship that it’s not british, it’s somebody else’s ship and we want it back. The owners wanted back.
Well, the privateer owners had to hire lawyers to represent them.
And there’s a great quote in the book about one guy writing to another guy who happened to be a lawyer saying, man, your business is exploding because all of these,
privateersmen So when you look at any activity to really understand its impact, you have to look at all the tendrils that come out, not necessarily just the specific activity you’re focusing on.
And privateersmen had ripple effects on the american economy during the american revolution.

Jake:
[32:05] When our listeners are trying to envision what a privateer cruise was like, I know.
Early on in the war, during the, during the seizure, boston, there was plenty of british shipping.
A lot of privateersmen happened basically within sight of boston light, but then later on the british move off to Halifax and in new york. And where did where did the privateersmen Oh, after that?

Eric:
[32:26] Privateersmen just like pirates go where the money is to be had in this case where prizes are to be found.
So, uh, the privateers, you see them ranging up and down the coast because there are a lot of british ships and merchant ships that are coming in to supply the british army,
and the british navy that is located at various points along within the colonies.
You also see many privateersmen going out into the broader atlantic, trying to intercept british ships that are transiting between London and the Caribbean.
Now you have to keep in mind the Caribbean is basically the main source, one of the main sources along with India, but really the Caribbean is probably the most important at this time in terms of commerce, because there was sugar.

[33:10] There was a slave trade and London and England was very involved in in both of those and american.
Privateersmen an exceptionally good job of capturing,
not only slave ships, but also ships that had sugar onboard and other goods that were transiting from the Caribbean back to London and from London to the Caribbean, causing major problems within the Caribbean,
british colonies, but also within Britain itself.
So the privateers arrange all over the place in the atlantic.
The number of privateers went to the african coast to directly attack british slavers and bring those ships back as prizes, but also bring the human cargo, the enslaved people back,
into the slave economy in the, in the colonies or in the Caribbean.
Uh, they would go to write off England, there were a number of privateersmen especially those that operated out of France during part of the american revolution that were american privateers which had american captains and officers,
but often french cruise.

[34:17] And they would attack british shipping right around the United Kingdom and you know, within a couple of miles of, of the shore.
So privateersmen would go wherever they felt, they could find good prizes.
They went north to nova Scotia off Canada Quebec and uh, then they would come back.
But privateersmen cruises generally did not last very, very long.
It was quite common to go out for a couple of months or maybe up to six months.

[34:47] But not to go out for years at a time because you had to come back, especially if you’re successful and if you weren’t successful after a while you just have to give up and maybe regroup, regroup back, important, then go out again on another another day.
So they were, they would go where the targets of opportunity were.
And just imagine one thing that fascinates me about this period and a lot of my books really focus on the great age of sail.
It’s not because I’m a sailor. I’m not a sailor. I live in Marblehead There are a lot of, a lot of sailing goes on here.
I’m just fascinated by the ocean. Something about these stories.
Just the thoughts envisioning these small ships.
Even 100 ft long ship is a small ship out in the mighty atlantic going out.
They have no satellite data. They have no Gps, they have relatively crude navigational skills and science to rely on.
And they’re going out and they don’t have advanced knowledge of where ships, you know what ships are leaving, which which ports halfway across the world.
And they go out and they cross their fingers and they searched the Horizon every day.
And they hope that the right ship is going to come along and that they will see it at the right time.
There must have been thousands of ships that were potential prizes that passed, you know, maybe 20 miles away, a little bit beyond the curvature of the earth and.

Jake:
[36:13] Or even at night just passing by without a lantern, it could pass almost almost Spar to Spar and never know that there was another ship. There.

Eric:
[36:21] That definitely happened a lot, so privateersmen was a real gamble.

Jake:
[36:27] You have a whole chapter in the book. I don’t remember the title of the chapter, but it seems like the place to put the cool stories you found about some of the experiences of these privateersmen So I want to ask you about a couple of them.

Eric:
[36:39] Okay, let’s see if I remember the details.

Jake:
[36:41] Okay, so quiz Time. There was a privateer vessel, a couple of privateersmen vessels called the General Arnold, named after that great american hero, General Benedict Arnold.
So one of the generals, Arnold sales out of Boston Harbor, Christmas Eve 1778 on a what turned out to be a very short cruise. Can you, can you tell me what happened to the General Arnold?

Eric:
[37:03] Yeah, that’s, that’s, that’s a horrific story. The General Arnold captained by a guy named James McGee sailed out.
I can’t remember the exact number, but it’s probably over 100 men on board and they were going on a six month cruise in tandem with another privateer.
And as they were going around the outstretched arm of Cape Cod, some bad weather blew in and they got separated.
The other privateersmen went on, I think, to the Caribbean.
But the general Arnold was caught in a major snowstorm and they tried to seek shelter in Plymouth harbor.
They moored outside, right near the mouth of the harbor and the wind and the snow and the waves were just absolutely merciless.
They were caught in a major blizzard and the temperature dropped precipitously and essentially, over the course of a day and a night.

[38:05] Ah about 72 men onboard froze to death some, you know like there and they actually, the men on board who survived who were barely hanging onto life because they couldn’t.
The people on shore saw some of this happening, but they couldn’t get out there to rescue them. And the people on board the Ah the, the General Arnold were not able to lower their boats and go inshore.
So they basically were fighting the elements for more than 24 hours.
And the people who were still alive took some of the frozen corpses and,
arrange them like cord wood to make a break against the wind and the spray of the waves and the ship was basically destroyed.
It was, it was pushed up against on sandbars and the hull was compromised.
And then finally the next day when things calm down a little bit, the people on, On shore were able to make their way out to the crippled General Arnold on ice floes and using wooden planks.
And then they were able to transform, they transported like 72 corpses, I think it was back to shore as well as the living.
Ah the corpses were so frozen that they couldn’t put them into coffins.
So they put them in the local creek to thaw them out a little bit. So they’re a little malleable.
And the men who survived, Some of them died even after being brought on shore.

[39:35] And one of them that I talked about extensively in the little segment is Barnabas downs,
who was almost dead when the rescuers came and it was only by,
Dent of one of his eyelashes, his eyelids fluttering that the rescuers realized this guy’s not dead, he’s still alive and they brought him into a local bar.
They had to pry open his jaw to get liquids into him,
and he slowly regained life but had a number of amputations and but he lived out a relatively happy life after that despite his need to hobble around with with crutches.
So it’s really horrific story of being caught by the elements and for the most part losing James Mcghee went on.
He survived. He went on to become a very well known china trader in the New United States and.

Jake:
[40:29] And one of the owners of the Shirley Eustis House in Roxbury, because when I was a dose of their, his name would come up in connection to the china trade, and I had never looked into his time as a privateer captain.

Eric:
[40:40] That’s one thing you see a lot in this, but you don’t see them to see it in the book.
If you, if you read this book and then you read my book when America first met china, you can see the connections because there’s a big section of the american revolution in that book as well.
But a lot of the skills that privateers gained during the american revolution were put to use after the american Revolution, when a lot of those privateersmen vessels,
returned either returned to being merchant vessels or the ones that were built expressly to be privateers were transformed into merchant vessels and basically introduced the new country, the United States,
to the world via commerce.

Jake:
[41:19] In researching this book, what did you find out about how privateersmen helped to build wealth and sort of the intergenerational fortunes for some of the the investors, or the Captain’s, either in New England or beyond.

Eric:
[41:34] Tracking the fortunes of the privateers who weren’t the captains or the owners is more difficult because as in every time of history the average person doesn’t make much of an imprint.
You know, there’s not a lot written about their life.
Ah but what I can say is that privateersmen did contribute to a number of fortunes and certainly contributed to a number of individuals having a better financial outlook during the revolution.
And afterwards, there have been a couple of studies by academics that have shown that a number of privateersmen In fact, one study that focused on boston, it basically showed that the vast majority of people who were involved in privateersmen.

[42:17] During the american revolution at the owner level who had fortunes already.
Their fortunes greatly improved during and right after the american revolution and a lot of that was no doubt due to privateersmen income, I’m sure there’s a researcher out there someday.
It’s going to take up the cudgel and do a deep dive on all the individual owners and see what happened to them during and after the Revolution, teasing out exactly what happened to people’s fortunes and why is difficult.
But there’s no doubt that privateersmen helped a number of people in financially, both low level people and high level people and it also probably harmed people,
financially because they were on the wrong end of a winning streak.

Jake:
[43:05] On the flip side, in a way, it’s easy to see the impact of american privateer Ng on America, you can see the captures, the british vessels, the morale boost. That increases the negotiating position of people like franklin and Adams.
But what was the impact on the british war effort? How how much impact did american privateer Ng have directly on the ability of the british to prosecute the war?

Eric:
[43:31] You cannot argue and I don’t argue that privateersmen brought Britain to its knees. What privateersmen really did.
It was part and parcel of the whole suite of things that were taking place that was making the war harder to sustain from the british perspective.
And privateersmen definitely did send insurance rates skyrocketing, especially in the caribbean and ships leaving from english ports because of potential attacks.
Uh, probably 16 to 1800 british ships were captured as prizes and that was a real financial loss.
At one point, a the Earl of Suffolk said on the, the floor of Parliament when they were discussing all of the losses that have taken place particularly in the Caribbean where american privateers were wailing british ships.
Right and left, he said basically to his fellow parliament members.

[44:24] Be quiet, be quiet, we shouldn’t be talking about this, you know, out in the open because it really gives a proof of the impotence of our country and and how poorly this is going.
Ah, and there were a number of british people who were a sided with the americans. I mean, they didn’t, they didn’t want to lose America, but they also didn’t, they weren’t supportive of the war.
So the incremental impacts of privateersmen on affecting insurance rates, direct captures.
Um, for forcing a lot of british warships to do convoy duty with merchant ships, all of these things.
It was part of the drip, drip, drip and then bringing France into the war on the side of America, which privateersmen had a role in all of these things combined with military victories at, on,
on land and other factors.

[45:16] Contributed to a war weariness on the part of Britain,
and was part of the, the soup, for lack of a better word of things that force Britain to finally decide, we’re going to put an end to this war.
America is going to be its own country and hopefully we’re going to benefit from all that trade after the revolution, which is pretty much what happened.

Jake:
[45:40] A couple of years after that battle of the Virginia Capes in the Battle of Yorktown, we have a negotiated peace in North America.
At least what happened to all those privateersmen their crews after peace came. Why why didn’t we see this spike in piracy like we saw after King William’s war, Queen Anne’s war?

Eric:
[45:58] Good question. It’s sort of hard to say why did something not happen. But part of it was because these privateersmen were of a much pure character during the american Revolution?
A lot of the privateersmen earlier wars. Uh, we’re actually engaged in nothing but piracy, but they used their letter of mark as a cloak of legitimacy here in the american revolution.
American privateersmen didn’t do that. So it was perhaps much less likely that they would veer into piracy.
Also, after the american revolution was one, you have to think about the amazing psychological environment that americans were living in. They were the newest country on the face of the globe.
And people believed at the time that the prospects were very bright because all of a sudden all of these ports around the world which were closed to americans because of british navigation acts were now suddenly laid open.
So I think there was an incredible amount of optimism.
It didn’t last long in certain cases, there was a depression and you know, but I don’t think the impulse to go into piracy was there.
I think the impulse really was to transform all of the still existing privateers into merchant ships and into peaceful pursuits.
And for a while and certainly growing in the late 1700s and into the early 1800s, there were a lot of opportunities for peaceful commerce and for whatever reason, people didn’t.

[47:24] Turned to piracy. And part of the reason.
And again, I can’t prove this because it’s sort of account. It’s proving something why did something not happen.
But you have to think about in the early 17 hundreds and 15 hundreds and 16 hundreds, the oceans of the world and certainly the atlantic was a lot more like the Wild West by the time of the American revolution and certainly afterwards there were a lot of pretty.

[47:47] Massive navies afloat and there was a lot of commerce that needed to be protected.
So I think the opportunities for pirates to operate were constrained because they would be subject to probably more massive retaliation.
And also you would have to be pretty powerful, a pretty powerful pirate ship,
To overhaul a 300 or 400 ton merchant vessel that had 20 cannons on board and 200 Uh people.
The ships were just getting bigger commercial ships.
Merchant ships were much, much bigger in the late 1700s and into the early 1800s and more capable of either outrunning or defending themselves against pirates.
And plus there were more naval ships afloat that might put a crimp in any pirates plan.
And who knows, maybe people just became more honest. Although I find that hard to believe.

Jake:
[48:49] So so if our listeners have gotten inspired by all this talk about private hearing, where can they go if they want to enlist in a private tier crew? Today?

Eric:
[48:59] We can still, according to the United States Constitution, we can still issue letters of Mark. We we don’t and I don’t think we will be anytime soon. We have a powerful navy that can do our fighting for us if it comes to that.

Jake:
[49:13] When when did that transition happen? When did countries turn away from letters of marque?

Eric:
[49:18] They basically turned away from them. In the mid 1850s, there have been a lot of calls after the American Revolution, even by Benjamin Franklin, who had been a big supporter of privateersmen during the war after the war, he thought it was a barbaric practice and he urged the new United States,
to ban privateersmen but the problem was,
Nobody else was really banning privateersmen at the time.
And when the war of 1812 rolled around here, America was in a similar position. Fighting once again Britain their navy, although larger certainly and more capable than it was during the american revolution was still not a massive fighting force.
So once again, president Madison in Congress decided to issue letters of marque, hundreds and hundreds of,
privateersmen left from American ports and they played an important role in the war of 1812 as well.
But even in subsequent decades, there were, there were a number of american politicians and other people both here and abroad who thought privateersmen should be outlawed.

[50:19] In part because they viewed it as legalized piracy or they said or also the idea that war should be waged against peaceful commerce but should be waged against other warring powers and warships and soldiers.
So in 18 the mid 18 fifties after the Crimean war, there was an effort on the part of the international community to outlaw privateersmen and everybody even England signed on.
But America, the United States decided not to become a signatory to that part of the treaty because they thought they might need privateersmen again.
They we still didn’t have a massive navy and it might be good to have letters of marque in our back pocket should we be attacked again.
And interestingly enough, the people who attacked the americans. It was during the civil War.
During the civil war, the confederacy issued a number of letters of marque.

[51:13] They weren’t particularly effective, but they did go out and attack a number of northern or Union ships.
And there was a time in which Abraham Lincoln was even in favor of hanging these confederate privateers as pirates.
But when he got word from jefferson Davis, the president of the confederacy that okay, you hang our confederate privateers as pirates.
We’re going to start hanging your union soldiers and Mariners that we capture will be tip for tat.
So no confederate privateers were hanged and they weren’t that effective.
So they sort of petered out towards the end of the war and after that after the Civil War, I am unaware of any time in which the United States issued a letter of marque,
Because come in the late 1800s.
Certainly the early 1900s, we had a very powerful navy and we had other ways to engage in war, we didn’t need to rely on privateersmen.

Jake:
[52:14] Before I go into a wrap up, is there anything that you wish I had asked about today that I didn’t.

Eric:
[52:20] No I think we ranged over a whole lot. I mean if anybody has, you know if anybody has any other questions they can always reach me through my.

Jake:
[52:22] We did We covered a lot of ground today.

Eric:
[52:30] My website and that’s a www dot Eric Jay Dolin dot com, it’s just my whole name.
E R I C J A Y D O L I N dot com.
And the reason that I would recommend that people look at that website is first, the introduction to all of my books is on the website.
If you go to the individual books pages you can read the Introduction to Rebels at sea so you can get an idea of whether you might want to read the rest of the book.
I also include reviews that have come out so you can see what other people thought about the book.
And I also have a page of events, I have about 30 or 35 talks scheduled mostly in New England but some further a field and I know that there are more in the works.
So if you go to my events page on Eric Jay Dolin dot com you can see exactly what I’m speaking and I’m speaking near where you live, you know, please come to the talk and you can see a nice,
90 slides slideshow and talk about rebels at C1 other thing that’s on my website is I offer autographed copies of the book.
I once had somebody asked have me sign one of my books, it said dear, so and so I couldn’t have written this book without you eric so I don’t know.

Jake:
[53:56] That’s excellent, that’s a great idea.

Eric:
[53:59] But yeah that was that was the only thing I would just say if people want to learn more about me who I am, my background and all the books 15 books that I’ve written on a whole bunch of different topics just go to my website,
and one other thing I’ll add I have a facebook page, it’s fairly active.
It’s really I post a lot of stuff about history. I post a lot of stuff about my books.
I post tend to post a lot of stuff about nature or quirky facts and it’s also a good way to find out more about what I’m doing, what I’m writing about or what historical topics intrigued me.
And again that’s just my facebook pages. That is my name at Eric Jay Dolin and you’ll you’ll get there.

Jake:
[54:36] So listeners can just tap on the show notes link in the app there listening to this in right now and we’ll have a link there to your website, your facebook and a link to by Rebels at sea privateersmen the american revolution,
Eric Jay Dolin I just want to say thank you so much for for doing this, for spending so much time with us here today.
Um I’ve really appreciated the conversation.

Eric:
[54:58] You’re welcome and I had a fun time. Thanks.

Jake:
[55:02] To learn more about privateersmen and the book Rebels at sea.
Check out this week’s show notes at hub history dot com slash 249.
We’ll have a link to preorder the book which again will be available everywhere on May 31st.
We’ll also have a link to Eric Jay Dolin is website where you can find all his upcoming book events and to his facebook profile where you can learn all the latest news and engage with eric.
If you’d like to get in touch with us you can email us at podcast at hub history dot com.
We’re hub history on twitter facebook and instagram or you can go to hub history dot com and click on the contact us link while you’re on the site, hit the subscribe link and be sure that you never miss an episode.
If you subscribe on apple podcasts, please consider writing a PSA brief review.
If you do drop me a line and I’ll send you a hub history sticker as a token of appreciation that’s all for now.

Music

Jake:
[55:59] Stay safe out there listeners.