A People’s Guide to Greater Boston, with Joseph Nevins and Suren Moodliar (episode 192)

Intro

Music

Jake Intro-Outro:
[0:05] Welcome To Hub history, where we go far beyond the Freedom Trail to share our favorite stories from the history of Boston. The Hub of the Universe.
This is Episode 1 92 A People’s Guide to Greater Boston.
Hi, I’m Jake.
In just a few minutes, I’m gonna be joined by two of the three authors of a new book that’s launching this week called A People’s Guide to Greater Boston.
As the title implies, it’s a guidebook similar to Lonely Planet or Photos.
But instead of giving an overview of the Freedom Trail and introducing readers to the hot restaurants and hotels of Boston, this guidebook uncovers the for gotten stories of radicals and activists hidden away in every neighborhood in suburb.
For the listeners who complain that our normal episodes air too political or our point of used too liberal well, sorry in advance, I guess,
this guy definitely doesn’t keep politics out of history and its authors are starting from a point well to my left.

[1:06] But before we meet Joe Nevins and Surin Moodliar, it’s time for this week’s upcoming historical event for my upcoming event this week, I’m featuring a talk by Dr Richard Bell of the University of Maryland, hosted by the Boston Athenaeum.

Upcoming Historical Event

[1:22] By now, listeners probably know that I’m a big Hamilton nerd.
I’ve seen the musical twice and the soundtracks in pretty heavy rotation in my ear buds.
If you listen to our episode 60 to about a peculiar duel between Bostonians, you’ve heard us badly violate Lin Manuel is copyrights as well,
landing just in time for the Hamilton movies debut on Disney Plus this week’s virtual event is titled Hamilton.
How the Musical Remixes American History.
Here’s how the Athenaeum describes it.

[1:57] Even in Lock Down, America has Hamilton Mania With Disney plus streaming the show this July, everyone’s talking about Lin Manuel Miranda’s Tony winning musical.
It’s crafty lyrics, hip hop tunes and big, bold story of even rejuvenated interest in the real lives and true histories that Hamilton, the musical put center stage.
And this talk. University of Maryland historian Dr Richard Bell will explore this musical phenomenon to reveal what its success tells us about the marriage of history and show business.
We’ll learn what this amazing musical gets right and gets wrong about Alexander Hamilton, the American Revolution and the birth of the United States and about why all that matters.
We’ll examine some of the choices Hamilton’s creators made to simplify, dramatize and humanize the complicated events in stories on which the show is based.
We’ll also talk about Hamilton’s cultural impact. What does this runaway success reveal about the stories we tell each other about who we are and the nation we may?

[3:04] This Thursday, July 9. You can tune into the talk at 6 p.m.
The events free, but you need to register in advance to get the connection details.
We’ll have a link in this week’s show notes at hub history dot com slash 192 Before I introduce my guests, I’d like to pause and thank our patriotic sponsors.
These are the folks who signed up to give us $2.5 dollars or even $10 a month to help support the show.
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[4:26] And now it’s time for this week’s main topic, A People’s Guide to Greater Boston was written by Joseph Nevins, Surin, Moodliar, and Eleni Macrakis.
Joe, now professor of geography at Vassar College, was born and raised in Dorchester.
He’s the author of past books on Violence and East Team or U. S. Immigration in the apartheid era and the recent remaking of the US Mexico Boundary, Surin Moodliar grew up in South Africa. And now lives in Chelsea.
He is the coordinator of the movement building space in Quinn TRO Cinco.
He’s also the editor of the journal Socialism and Democracy and a past collaborator with Noam Chomsky.
Eleni Macrakis grew up in Cambridge and now works on affordable housing development in Greater Boston.
Their new book is a Radicals guide to Boston and the surrounding suburbs.
It’s organized first geographically than Topic Lee.
It has sections covering Boston’s urban core, the neighborhoods adjoining towns like Cambridge in Chelsea and then the North Shore south shore and Metro West.
In each section, the authors unearth a wide range of sites and in some cases, former sites that are tied to black, indigenous labour or other radical historic events.

[5:46] After the sections group by geography, there are 1/2 dozen thematic tours tying together sites from around the region that are all related to a single historic topic.
These include native Boston, Malcolm and Martin Sacco and Vanzetti.
Bread and Roses, The 1% and a Nature Tour, Joe and Surrender. Joining Me Now to Talk About a People’s Guide to Greater Boston.

A People’S Guide To Greater Boston

Jake:
[6:12] Joe and Suren. Welcome to the show.

Joe:
[6:14] Thank you for having us.

Surin:
[6:16] Great to be here.

Jake:
[6:17] The book is a People’s Guide to Greater Boston, and I guess my first question about it is, Who do you envision this book being?
Four. Is it written for an audience of native Bostonians for first time visitors or for somebody else? Somebody somewhere in between.

Surin:
[6:35] You know, when you write a book with the title that contains where People’s guide, Um, you know, I think at some moments you are.
You entertained the fantasy that it’s speaking to absolutely everyone you know, if anyone would want to define themselves as part of the people.
Ah, however, in the sort of early stages of the book, I think we decided we wanted to reach people who were making social change or interested in social change,
or connected to or feel sympathy with, people who desire social change and changing the relations between the powerful and those,
ah afflicted by power.
And so I think that, you know, that sort of is a large category that speaks to who we’d like to reach.
So it does mean reaching students on campuses, workers in unions or non union workers and a wide range of other people.
Although we do, I think, assume a fair amount of education on behalf of the reader.

Jake:
[7:44] I guess the title is a little bit of, ah, dead giveaway by sort of the nod to Howards End and the People’s History of the United States. It gives folks an idea of what the point of view is.
So because it’s a guidebook, it is arranged a little bit differently than a typical, I guess. A narrative history book. Can one of you tell us a little bit about how the book structured?

Joe:
[8:07] While the book is very historical, right, it covers about 400 years the way it’s organized ISMM or geographical.
So the book is both ah, guidebook of sorts, and it’s also a historical geography.
And when we say it’s geographical, it’s it’s organized on the basis of places.
All right, So the book opens in the store core of the city of Boston and then moves out into the neighborhoods and then moves to municipalities in and around the city of Boston proper.
So we go from places like Cambridge and Somerville, places that one normally thinks of his problem, Greater Boston, but then places that air father of field places like Lawrence and Lynn Low, Salem, Plymouth, and conquered.
And partly what we’re trying to do is to help to shed light on pots of Greater Boston.
They’re typically neglected when one thinks about Boston’s historical geography and at the same time to highlight the fact that while there are boundaries between these different municipalities and these different,
different neighborhoods and sections of the of the greater urban area,
there are also a lot of connections, and those connections are formulated and struggled over in all sorts of ways.
And those formulations and struggles are central to what we’re trying to bring to light through this book.

Jake:
[9:35] The book ranges spends a lot of time, as you say, on the historic core and the neighborhoods of Boston. But it ranges from Hey, Vollbracht in out to Concord.
When did I guess? How did you decide where to draw the line in terms of what counted as Greater Boston for the purposes of the book?

Joe:
[9:53] Well, that let me just say that wasn’t an easy process, part of the struggle in writing, any book, and certainly this book trying to figure out what to include and equally important and that’s in effort.
To produce a book like this is to figure out what not to include.
And so one of the quit one of the discussions that we had a number of times is how do we define Greater Boston and,
where we ultimately decided we’re gonna define it by largely through the MBT a right.
But then, you know, that could take you pretty far right, especially in terms of the commuter rail.
You take your flight places like Wister and things like that. We didn’t we didn’t go that flower right?
Um, way tended to places that were relatively easily accessible from the city of Boston through public transportation.

[10:44] But you know, some of the places like Plymouth, I’m not so easy to eat to reach, but so it ultimately you know what you know in deciding to include a place like Plymouth,
it emerged out of our recognition, if you will, that to not included planets, given its important in terms of colonial, indigenous, historical geography ease.
We just leave this sort of a gaping hole in this story that we’re trying to tell at the same time and were very explicit about this in the book.
What we’re not trying to do in this book is to be comprehensive, all right, we’re trying to be suggestive.
A geographical story is, um is in some way doesn’t lend itself to the neatness that a historical narrative does.
And so in picking and choosing what to leave, what would conclude?
We left holes in the story, and we see this not ity as the end of a conversation. But as one intervention in an ongoing dialogue about the making of a People’s Greater Boston.

Jake:
[11:47] It’s a question that I struggle with with the podcast. What what stories do I include in the podcast? And when we first started almost four years ago now I would say, Oh, well, that was in Cambridge.
I don’t I don’t know. That’s not really Boston. And now I’m trying to convince myself whether really fascinating sounding book about a New Bedford whaler trying to decide well, his New Bedford Boston Enough.
So my my circle has gotten ever bigger over the past few years of doing this podcast.

Surin:
[12:16] That that was really a challenge for us to thinking specifically about places like Fall River, New Bedford.
Given the history people like in the Underground Railroad in, um, in Frederick Douglass’s life and all.
And ultimately we decided most people just didn’t think of New Bedford, this part of Boston, and so that was difficult.
Another sort of entry point into this was to look at the sort of life off people who we were writing about.
Ah, and when we support of people like Sacco and Vanzetti, for example, they lived all over, you know, the map of what we call Greater Boston and beyond there, too.
And they got around, you know, literally in on the same day to these different parts of the city in in, in addition to living in these different areas.
And so there is a a functional Greater Boston, in a sense, and I think that way certainly don’t cover it comprehensively, as Joe pointed out, but But we do have a sense off what’s in it.
And ah, I think that the different cities we’ve chosen sort of capture the circumference off that area.

Jake:
[13:31] Now coming back to a comment that Joe made about Plymouth and the importance of including Plymouth, in part because of its centrality in indigenous history of the Boston area.
I guess it’s It’s no accident that the introduction to the book is titled Unsettling Greater Boston.
I read a double meaning into that title. What were you getting at by beginning your guide book to Boston by talking about Boston is a product of colonization.

Joe:
[14:00] So So Certainly Jake, you’re correct. And that we purposely purpose. If Lee wanted to communicate a double meeting, we want him unsettle.
If you will received wisdom about what Boston Waas is and how it came to be What what we know today, I should say Greater Boston.
And at the same time, we want to think of the process of colonisation, right?
And if you look at the root of the word colonization, the etymology of the term right, it’s about settlement.
And we want to think about that process of settlement, particularly European settlement.
And how that, um, you know, the work that that did and the work that built upon right and particularly the presence of non European peoples specifically, you know, the indigenous or native population.

[14:55] And sometimes think about Boston as a colonial enterprise.
Um, we want think about both as a site that was it is colonized, you know, in a broad sense, but also a place that participated in and continues in a broader colonial project,
right, that is both national and global dimensions.
So when we think about, for example, the U. S.
Conquest of Hawaii or we think of the U S annexation of was today the U S Southwest,
through the US Mexican War of 18 46 to 18 48 by which he rest took about what was at least nominally then half of almost half of Mexican territory.

[15:39] If we think about the War of 18 98 Spanish American War and the taking of the Philippines in Cuba, right,
affluent and influential, greater Bostonians played central roles in this and still today, you know, Boston’s a city that’s notice place with significant piece and anti militarism movement.
But Boston is also central to the military industrial complex, right?
And if we think about, for example, the war in Yemen that’s continues to unfold, riffing on corporation in Waltham is a central player.
And that and so we want to bring together these different strands, if you will, of the Colonial Project book Boston Go a Greater Boston as a place of settlement at a place and Greater Boston and the institutions individuals associated with it,
as a place that produces a logical project.
And, of course, at the same time, a place in which this colonel project, you know, it’s different facets is challenged.
Ah, in very important ways over time.

Jake:
[16:40] It’s funny you mentioned the settlement of the annexation of Hawaii. I was on Maui a few years back, and there just seemed to be a congregational church on every corner.
And of course, that’s the missionary movement that was based out of Park Street Church. Why? I wasn’t really aware of that at the time until I came back and said, Why are all these Congregational Church is everywhere on Maui? It doesn’t make any sense.

Joe:
[17:04] You know, if you go to the Green Street T station within about a 5 10 minute walk from that station, you’ll come to the stately home of the Dole’s family.
And, yes, one of the And they were unit. I think the father of the family was a very progressive Unitarian Universalist minister.
His son went off to have it. And I think he might have studied, like, plant.
But you bought me or something like that and, um helped create the plantation agricultural system in Hawaii that gave its name to the door corporation that we don’t know.

Jake:
[17:44] The introduction to the book. As you say, it focuses on the Colonial Project, especially during the settlement period of Boston.
And then you transition from that into the first few sites in your section on Boston’s urban core. And either the first or one of the first stops on your tour of Boston is Deer Island.
And for most people today, Dear Island is known as the site of the massive waste digesters. The sewage digital digesters are visible from around the harbor from the blue hills from any place where you could get advantage on the harbor.
But back in the 17th century, that same site waas basically an internment camp for the praying Indians.
So we give us a little background on why we call them praying Indians and how the camps there came to be.

Surin:
[18:39] The camps on Deer Island are extremely interesting for precisely the group of people you’re talking about the praying Indians, and they represent an interesting category of people, as it were, because,
they were a group of people who essentially collaborated with in the with the settlers and adopted Christianity and adopted many of its practices and lived in very defined settlements.
On in our book, we have several of them.
The warmest settlement in Lowell, known Antam in Ah Brighton, and, um, and we mentioned Natick as well.
And as a group of people who collaborated, it seems like they occupy the an ambiguous relationship, both with respect to the settlers and two other indigenous people.
People who refuse to collaborate at the same time, you know, just emphasizes sweat ambiguity because.

[19:41] Till today. There’s no riel settled perspective on whether,
these were people who are genuinely given up their indigenous beliefs or, if they had, you know, in a very calculating way,
decided to collaborate in order that they could stay on their land or stay on land close to where they once had lived.
In the case off known Antam, these were people who were worked with Johnny L.
Get Off to whom John Elliott Squares named, and they converted to Christianity and were then are settled in 16 46 in the area known as Done Antam.
And within five years they were moved off that land that they have been allocated further out off for Boston to Natick.
And so one of the stories we tell is off.
People are marking this movement by paddling down river from Natick are on the Charles all the way through to, ah, to the bay on DA and to ultimately land at Deer Island.

[20:50] During King Phillips war, the praying Indians were seen as ah hostile party and removed from their lands transferred from the lands.
Much to say Ah, you know, Israeli settlers desire to transfer Palestinians from their lands today.
And so they were entered on the islands in the 16th in 16 75.
In the course of the what is called today called King Phillips War and subject to deportation. From there they were also left, you know, we say an internment camp, but it’s also a place where they were effectively starved.
Ah, while on the island in winter.
And so it It has a very ugly history that to perpetuated itself long after that lay off people was were vanquished.
So after that, it was a place where people were interred in the late 18 hundreds at least even in an attempt to ah isolate people who are suspected of having smallpox.
The island was used for that purpose as well as a quarantine area.
The Irish people were quarantined in the 18 forties, and then in the 19 twenties, socialists were entered their before being deported.
So that history continues.

[22:12] I’ll just give you a very different perspective on Deer Island.
From what we even have in the book and tell you my perspective on it, I first learned about Deer Island for the very same reason you cited at the beginning, thinking about the large water treatment facility there.
And ah, the reason I came to you think about it is it’s a multi $1,000,000,000 facility.
And it was itself a product of an urban struggle. Yeah, over Boston Harbor and in order that Boston Harbor be cleaned up so it was created.
And when it was created, ah, Bond was taken out, which the Massachusetts Water Resources Authority as to service and it service through user fees.
And the result is that water rates in Boston are relatively high compared to the rest of the country, and that high water those high water costs result in racial inequality across the city.
Ah, where black Boston is 10 times more likely to have the water shot off than white Boston.
And so Dear Island also has that meaning for me to.
It’s a symbol off a particular type of investment in a particular type of technology,
that costs the city in terms of social inequality and literally in terms of monthly bowls, so Deer Island doesn’t have a happy history, as far as I’m concerned.

Jake:
[23:38] No. And there’s a lot there that I had never thought on back. I would have never. I’ve never compared Boston’s what rates to other major cities even realize they were high.
While we’re on the topic of indigenous history, I’m going to fast forward through history and also through the book a bit.
There was another story I’d never read anywhere else before, about the OD on theater and a speech that was given there in 18 36 that harken back to,
that settlement period and King Phillips War itself, who was speaking been in 18 36.

Surin:
[24:13] The person speaking was William Apes, and maybe they might be pronounced a Pez. I really haven’t come across a single settled spelling or pronunciation off the name.
Um, and his own autobiography, Go is simply his name. William Apes and then Comma Peak. What?
Ah, a descendant of Peak. What Indigenous peoples?
The first war that the settlers had was with the P quality ah, Indians, the first war that Massachusetts Bay Colony engaged in in 16 36.
And so William Apes was, Ah, suddenly someone who traveled the area and,
developed a pan Indian identities rather than an individual tribal identity, he he articulated a sort of a broader history off indigenous people, sharing a common experience.
In fact, just before he came to make that speech at the Odeon Theatre.

[25:17] He had participated in the Mass be uprising in 18 33 18 34 in which what was dinner reservation,
rose up against their trusteeship, which has exercised through Harvard University and sort greater autonomy.
This is the same group of people who the Trump administration is currently challenging, or at least a part of the same nation with one pinoke whom the Trump Administration is challenging over their rights to territory today.

[25:48] What is interesting about William Apes is in developing this pan European identity.
He also saw himself as an historian, and he used history for political purposes in a very self conscious way.
So his speech at the Odeon Theatre is called a vindication of King Philip.

[26:08] And he delivered the speech engages in the in a service study off European encounters within eight with native peoples from point of view of native peoples.
But he had a very immediate practical purpose for harkening back to more than 100 years before King Phillips War, which was at about the same time the government of Andrew Jackson was engaged in,
what was carrying out the plans of the Indian Removal Act.
And so there was a nationwide movement against people being expelled from Florida and from what is present a Georgia.
And this also speaks to his pan Indian identity so that many themes that come together with William apes another element of this. The intersectionality of all of this.
That’s that speech that day in on January 8th 18 36 it was advertised in the Liberator by published by William Lloyd Garrison.
And so there’s a great sense off overlap off struggle and an identity of struggles, you know, on one end with garrisons advocating for immediate abolition of slavery.
And here, you know, vindicating King Philip and reaffirming the rights of indigenous people to their lands against a a ah, government very much like today’s.

Jake:
[27:35] Where was the Odeon Theatre? Was it in? What is today China? Tell.

Surin:
[27:41] No, actually, it’s in federal. It’s one federal place, so are very close to Liberty Square in ah, down in the financial district.

Jake:
[27:52] Liberty Square would have been the site of the Liberty tree. And then, of course, after that, the Liberty stump after the British cut it down. But you don’t focus on the revolutionary era. When you talk about Liberty Square, you talk about a celebration in 17 93.
So what was happening during Washington’s administration that was resulting in this big party in Liberty Square?

Surin:
[28:14] You know, I should say this was a huge learning exercise for me. For about 10 years, my office was about two blocks from the site of the Liberty Tree, which was in Chinatown, Right.
However, Liberty Square is in the financial district.

Jake:
[28:30] Okay, I’m confusing the two.

Surin:
[28:32] Yeah, and I was just is confused. So that’s that was the first place I went to research Liberty Square and eventually walked. Ah, you know, about a mile or so in the opposite direction.

Jake:
[28:37] Uh huh.

[28:42] Uh huh.

Surin:
[28:43] So this Liberty Square was very close to what would have been the waterfront in that period, right?

Jake:
[28:50] Uh huh.

Surin:
[28:51] Um and ah, it was also the site off a an action against the Stamp Act in 17 65 eso.
It’s a site that has great resonance for the official narratives of the American Revolution.
The revolt against the stamp act, you know, was part of sort of the growing awareness off the English in America that they were more American than they were English.
And and so so the site has great resonance for that meaning or great surveillance for that that kind of question.
But in the early 17 nineties, there’s still a lot of debate as to what the nature of the American Republic would be.
You know, it is just four years since the Kuwait are that created the present US Constitution as something that supplanted the articles of confederation.
And so there’s still a lot of questions about the legitimacy of this form of government and this Constitution and high on the minds of people, and was sensitive.

[29:56] This was still a revolutionary era and that there was extreme social inequality in not only the city of Boston but pretty much everywhere else.
They’re afterglow off. The Revolution certainly had worn off, you know. It had Bean quite a few years in 17 76.
And and so, in response, the sense of inequality.
Many people throughout the United States the,
13 colonies looked abroad at the French Revolution as an example off, dealing not only with the question of political liberty but more substantive questions off.
So show economic freedom and equality.
And so the French Revolution caused great consternation in the ranks off the American ruling elite.
People like Thomas Jefferson and all celebrated it on Dwyer.
Actually, you know witnesses too much of it, whereas people like Boston’s John Adams and Washington and all looked upon it with a suspicion.

[31:06] And so the events that are celebrated at Liberty Square January 24th 17 93 was a celebration of the victory at the Battle of Al May in late December,
off the French revolutionaries against the Prussian troops.
And so it was a huge celebration. Everyone celebrated it, except that people sang French revolutionary songs.
They engaged in parades and feasts.
And they left the official celebrations and celebrated more broadly, including at,
the site of the old Liberty tree in Chinatown, stopping there and having another feast and meeting and sort constituting a more multiracial crowd,
than the white crowd gathered. It’s Liberty Square.
So Liberty Square, you know, has this very subversive meaning to it.
And in some ways, the present celebration of Liberty Square gives you no sense that this was the site of off class conflict in that period.
And it wasn’t nearly the fact that Boston in that period had the largest pro French Revolution demonstrations anywhere outside of Franz, right?
But that, um, in fact, ah, this was a critique off what was happening in the United States at the same time.

Jake:
[32:32] Now staying within that urban course or the first section of the book.
There’s another for gotten chapter just down the road, a piece in the north end and you frame it around what was once an armory on Cooper Street,
and it culminates in a riot, and it culminates with the militia firing a cannon at a crowd of civilians.
But the morning starts, it seems, very simply, trying to serve draft notices in the tenements in the North end.
How did we get from a normal, calm morning Teoh essentially state violence against a crowd of civilians that afternoon?

Joe:
[33:12] Yeah, it’s a great question. So you’re referring to this masquerade that took place in July 18 63 on Cooper Street at the quarter with North Margin.
And if you go there today, you’re gonna find a parking lot, no sign, no marker indicating what transpired there in 18 63.
A lot of people are familiar with the New York draft riots, but they not familiar with the Boston draft, right?
The New York draft riot took place just a few days before the Boston draft.
Riots of what took place in New York was in the air at the time the North End had a huge Irish descended population tend to think of the North End in terms of Italians but the North.
Many types of many types of people have lived in the North end over time and in the mid 18 hundreds it had a very significant Irish population right there.
About 50,000 Irish immigrants living in Boston at that time, and this is out of a total population of a little over 180,000,
and the north and was one of the two largest on claims as ah, you know largely impoverished population is a working class population.
Not surprisingly, the Irish became sort of demographic resource, if you will, for the Union Army.

[34:26] And so they they made up a disproportionate number of the troops that came out of Massachusetts, and as a result, they also experienced a disproportionate amount of casualties.
At the same time, there were heavy economic consequences in terms of the you know this overreliance, if you will on our soldiers.
A lot of the breadwinners, if you will of families in the North End were lost to the war.
And so people who were engaged in recruiting and serving draft notices were often not very popular.
And so that morning a couple of officials came and they tried to serve notices on Prince Street,
and they were rebuffed by a woman who, and the story goes, try to assault one of the officials and she the officials, right.
The officials tried to arrest her, and that led to this confrontation outside the Cooper Street Armory in.
Now, the estimate is somewhere between 500 to 1000 individuals, many of them women and Children.

[35:29] You know, tour of bricks from the street and they were hurling them at the building and smashing windows and, you know, splintering pieces off the huge double doors.
And at that point, and some of the some of the rioters, head and firearms and other weapons homemade weapons point the commanding officer of the militia members inside,
well, one of the arteries cannons filled with buckshot and willed to the entrance and fired for the doors and killed.
No one really knows for sure Something. Estimates run typically from 8 to 14 people.
You know, Irish. Even the Irish Bostonians played a big role of the in the Union war effort.
People of Irish descent were in vigilant bet at best about of the Civil War.
Do they support it largely in the name of the preservation of the union, not in the name of emancipation of enslaved people.
So a lot of people were actually opposed to Lincoln’s Emancipation Proclamation.
And if you go back and read like the Irish newspapers of the Time or Catholic newspapers, say the Boston pilot, the pilot, which is still the Archdiocese of Boston’s weekly newspaper,
they used openly racist language, convinced white people against the idea of equality of the African descended population.
But what this episode illuminates is the class tensions, if you will, on additional racial tensions that were ATO hot of.

[36:56] Through the making of the war, if you will, right the making of the war in the sense of raising an army.

Surin:
[37:02] Against the flip side of the anti draw off riots with the fact that,
there were African Americans who were dying to participate in the war and fight for the union and fight, More importantly for emancipation.
And one of the sites we have in the book is Can Makes, which is in High Park.
And was the site off the training ground for the Massachusetts 54th?
You know, I think there’s an interesting story about how African Americans came to be at least 10% of the Union Army.
Ah, whereas at the start of the war they weren’t allowed to fight it all.
And in that conversation, there’s a lot of,
you see history being put to practical political use,
in order to argue for African American participation in the war as soldiers, rather than merely as Teamsters carrying ah weaponry and and supplies. And that kind of thing.

Jake:
[38:05] Yes. So what was that conversation? How did history play into the debate around starting the first volunteer regiments of African Americans?

Surin:
[38:13] Said the African maintenance were excluded from the beginning. And one of the arguments made is that the African American soldiers were good enough for General Washington, but not for General McLelland was for beginning off the civil war.
The commander off the off, all the armed forces off on the union side.
That’s one way in which you know past African involvement in the liberation off this country from the British, if you with one work to that narrative was Marshall to argue for participation as soldiers in the,
in the union forces.
But for Lincoln, it was very complex question. He He was constantly triangulating trying to maintain the border states supporting the war.
And he felt that if he inducted African Americans into the into the our Union armed forces as full soldiers, it would lose Thiebaud er, states like parts off North Carolina.

[39:11] Kentucky and, uh, and even Tennessee, which went over to the Confederate, the last state to join the Confederate.
And so he delayed and procrastinated on this involvement, even though he met twice with people like Frederick Douglass to discuss this.
However, by the second meeting, he’s ready to involve African Americans, particularly in light off the fact that war casualties were so heavy and that there was growing group draft resistance throughout the country.
And so following on that meeting, Douglas gave his commitment to recruit people, including his own son, into the 54th into the Massachusetts 54th which trained it camp makes.
And when they left a refill station for downtown Boston and the State House, 1000 of them to parade passed the State House.
They also went by the site of the Boston Massacre, off 17 70.

[40:11] On Sort of Call attention to Christmas attacks as, ah, both Native American and African American was the first life sort of lost in the American Revolution.
But that whole rescuing off Christmas attacks as a historical figure came about in that period because an African American historian, William Nell, recovered that history and emphasized it,
and so that we see so history being deployed to tell stories for, you know, very instrumental political purposes and in this case, to defeat the Confederate South, something that seems,
you know, is being played out again.

Jake:
[40:56] Well, as long as we’re moving out of the immediate quote historic core of Boston into some of the neighborhoods.
One neighborhood that the makes a pretty strong showing in the book is Roxbury and the sort of Lower Roxbury in the South End.
And one of the fascinating sights that you talk about in the book is Dennison House.
Now we’ve mentioned Dennison House a little bit on the show before, just in the context of Amelia Earhart’s work there.
Can you introduce us to what a settlement house would have been in the early 20th century? What made them important, and then among settlement houses? What made Dennison House special?

Joe:
[41:40] So when people hear about settlement houses often, you know, to the extent there familiar with them.
Probably what comes to mind is Jane Adams is whole house in Chicago.

[41:53] There are a number of them in and around Boston, and Dennison House is probably the most well known of those. It was founded in 18 92 and today was called Chinatown with South Cove on Tyler Street.
And they were typically establishments that had been set up by,
middle class or, you know, individuals, professional individuals, middle class institutions in working class or heavily immigrant neighborhoods.
And the goal was to, you know, settle, if you will, right?
Um, well educated upper middle class people among the working tour so that they could be studied right?
The working forgive you study and also to help corridor up lift them through the examples off Thea upper class.

[42:48] Upper middle class people who were setting this up fine in the case of the Dennison house and three founders were all college professors, right?
One was at Wellesley. They’re all from Wellesley College, right, an English professor, labor activists by the Venus cutter and economics professors Catherine Coleman and Emily Green.
About Belle. She was a very well known peace activist in politics. Dennison House.
Interesting it was. It was much more radical, and it pushed the envelope a lot more than most settlement houses not reflected the politics of the founders. And so, Wow!

[43:26] At Jenison House, people, particularly women, could take courses on literature and carpentry and nursing. And they had summer cancer Children. They had a library clinic.
It was also a meeting place for those who were interested in the causes of socialism and pacifism and the labor movement more broadly.
And this greatly upset many of the donors who tended to be nails.
You mentioned, you know, terms of some of the famous residents and workers there. Amillia hot.
But another one was married Kennedy O’Sullivan, and she was a labor organizer in one of the founders of the Women’s Trade Union League.
Dennison. How’s it grew? It eventually encompassed several houses in a row on Tyler Street in Chinatown.
But as it became more institutionalised, its core is sort of a women’s running organisation decreased, and so as it and that changed its politics.
So around World War 2 1942 it shut down in Chinatown and moved to Dorchester.
It merged with others settlement houses there, and they now exist as part of what’s known as the Federated Dorchester Neighborhood Houses.

Jake:
[44:41] Dennison House as a woman led and founded organization at the time it was founded. It’s very interesting to me.

Joe:
[44:49] Earlier, Sarin used the word intersectionality, and this is something that was really interesting that we discovered for ourselves as we were as we were doing.
Research on this book is that all sorts of people were working on all sorts of causes, you know, across the centuries, and so that women were involved in the founding of Dennison House, actually,
and in some ways is not surprising at all.
Right women played leading roles in all sorts of movements in the 19th and 18th and 17th centuries on, we saw that normally in Boston proper.
But we start in places like Lin, you know, with the Lin Female Anti slavery Society was really pushing the envelope not only against slavery, but against all racial barriers.
Lowell in terms of labor movement in the 19th century, and there are many examples.
And so what took place in Denison House in some ways emerges out of this lodger ecology, if you will, of people working on all sorts of different issues, and at many intersections.

Jake:
[45:57] So right down the street. Not so much from Dennison House. Neither of its incarnations, but from South End House and some of its contemporaries in the early 20th century Settlement house movement is Haley house.
Can you tell us a little bit? About what? The Founding and Mitch mission of Haley houses compared to some of the earlier settlement houses?

Joe:
[46:20] Am I taking that sooner? You.

Surin:
[46:21] Why did you do it?

Joe:
[46:24] You know, we divide that. We divided things up, Jake, and I think I got this one, and I forgot that I got it.

Jake:
[46:30] Uh huh. Well, actually, before we talk about Hailey House, that actually brings us to an interesting question that maybe I should have asked earlier.

Joe:
[46:31] So anyway.

Jake:
[46:40] How did you end up working on this project As three co authors. And were there any challenges with too many cooks in the kitchen, or was it different than other projects you’ve worked on by having a group authorship?

Joe:
[46:54] But we fought a lot. No, that that’s the next book Cradle.
You know, this book grows out of the series, right?
And until the publication of The Boston Book, it was a series of one, and the first book was that People’s Guide to Los Angeles, and the book did very well and has resulted that the University of California Press Commission to Siri’s.
And so there are There are a whole there, a number of these people’s guidebooks that are unfolding right, this one coming out very soon after Oz on San Francisco Bay Area, the next one will be New York City.
There’s one of Nashville is one on Orange County, California. So this number of them.
But when Laura Polito, the lead author of the Los Angeles Book, asked me if I knew anyone that could do the Boston book because they wanted to have some something on Boston, I am being very immodest.
I immediately thought of myself, but I knew I couldn’t do it by myself, and I immediately thought of Sarin as a potential co author.
And so I Culture and Suren immediately expressed interest.

[48:06] And at that time, Eleni Macrakis was a senior at Vassar College, and she’s staying in class with me.
Eleni is born and raised in summer extreme in Cambridge, and we connected, given her interest on things Greater Boston.
And it was very clear that she was someone who not only was really interest in the city but engaged in a very active way.
And so we asked her to serve as our research assistant, and she did a fantastic job.
Reese, when she said she did a lot more than simply do what we asked her to, Dio and she she made the project her own, and in doing so, helped to.

[48:47] You know, create things that we wouldn’t have imagined have been able to do about, you know, on our own.
So we asked her to become an author in terms of how and why we divided things up. Always we did.
I mean, as you might have gotten from Sauron’s discussion of Can’t Mike’s or on Liberty Square and things like that.
Serena has a fascination and deep knowledge on things related to the revolution reward with civil war and abolitionism.
And so she tended in that direction in ways that, um, you know, I didn’t, for example.
And there, you know, I have particular interests and bodies of knowledge and thinks I’m familiar with that, you know, let themselves more to my focusing on them than, say, Eleni and vice versa.
And so, in some ways the division of Labor emerged organically and at the same time. Sometimes it’s simply became a function of what one was able to do at a particular time.
And so, you know, as we were learning Mawr as we were trying to imagine the book as a whole, you know, we identified Hole so things that we, you know, thought were important. But with outward covering And when you say, like, who could do this?
And you know, sometimes it was based on who is available.

Surin:
[50:03] Sort of a a related question that is similar to how the book came about and the question of our division of labour. He’s We ended up writing about over 200 different sites, and and then we had to.
We have narrowed those down to a manageable amount, certainly one that would keep us within the 100,000 words limit that the that the press had established.
And, um, that was a toss that I dreaded.
And yet when we got together, Joe proposed very simple methodology, Right?
Let’s all the ones you think definitely have to be in and then list the ones that you think. Maybe, and then we’ll compare the lists.
And so immediately, once we identified the overlaps, the you know, those are definitely being in.
And then we looked at the maybes and there was a fair amount of convergence, even if it meant at times each of us having Teoh give up some sites that we really fell in love with.
And so um so it was very.

[51:09] Truly collegial, collaborative process, and I think of the fact that we were constantly learning about new things and developed questions along the way.
Sort of left us of a pragmatic attitude toward the history.
One we would never be comprehensively would never get to say the final word about any particular site.
So So let’s work with this and issue it into the world as part of a continuing stream of conversations.

Jake:
[51:42] Sorry about the diversion, then that’s something I had meant to ask at the at the top of the show.
I was just starting to ask about how Haley House being founded, sort of in mid 20th century era, would have been different from settlement houses of the earlier century.

Joe:
[52:00] So that Haley house grew out of me.
First of all, the Haley houses, it’s like an intentional living community of individuals dedicated to social justice.
So in that sense resonates if you will, with the spirit of of Dennison. House has different roots and emergency out of the Catholic Worker movement, which is Ah still exist today.
Founded by Dorothy Day and Peter Marin, a group of radical Catholics dedicated Teoh peace and anti militarism.

[52:33] Social, Social justice and and Simple living,
and the Catholic Worker Movement is a collection of autonomous communities that actively opposed war on poverty and so different Catholic worker communities in different cities do different things.
And in Boston, what they do through the Haley houses, they operated daily soup kitchen that provides breakfast from men.
And in the afternoon they provide elder Beale’s, regardless of gender.
And then they also have a food print country for neighborhood families and elders.
Since its original establishment in the mid 1960 sixties, Haley houses expanded what it does.
It owns and manages over 100 affordable housing units,
and it also has a community Goden in Roxbury, and it also has a bakery cafe in Dudley Square, Nubian Square that runs a catering business.
And it’s, ah, profit cheering establishment that normally works to pay a living wage.
But it also provides training jobs, too.
Individuals who for a whole variety of reasons, face major obstacles to finding employment.

[53:51] You know, Haley House, you know, in the South End and Haley house in Dudley or Nubians Square service, important centres of sort of left in progressive and peace activism in the city of Boston. And they’ve done that.
You know, Hillary has done that for the last 50 years or so.

Jake:
[54:10] Staying in the South End for a moment.
I want to talk about a riot, and I know our listeners are probably sick of hearing you say that, because whenever I am stuck for a topic to talk about on the podcast, I just flip through Boston history and there’s always a good riot to talk about.
But I’ve never talked specifically about the so called Puerto Rican riots that swept through several New England cities in the 19 seventies,
as embodied here in Boston in the 1972 Puerto Rican festival in Blackstone Square.
What led up to a moment of unrest that gets remembered, whether rightly or not, as the Puerto Rican riots of 1972.

Surin:
[54:52] As with most AH, urban uprisings and civil conflict, the exact origins are murky.
It includes the pact that some sort of scuffle broke out and someone use a starter pistol.
You know, the kind of thing used in athletics to sort of interrupt the process.
And that sort of brought the police in leading to three days off skirmishes and 36 arrests.
Ah, large number of injuries.
And so they waas this riot. Ah, as was characterized at the time in Blackstone Square.
One of the things that was interesting to us is to try to look at an event like that and go beyond the immediate,
item that becomes newsworthy and try to understand the community in which this event occurred, as it did.
In fact, you know, as most civil conflict today does ah, you know, result in increased attention to the community.
The fact that there was 32% unemployment in in the area at that time among Puerto Rican community.
There’s also time when there were other kinds of organizing happening, you know, in the same community.
In fact, some of the meetings that happened during the so called riot were in Victoria And so there was the kind of organizing having to create via Victoria in that period.

[56:21] But in addition to that, there was also a stronger current than, say, a fiver one see nonprofit type project there. Right?
And that was the fact that the Puerto Rican Socialist Party is very influence of grew out of the Puerto Rican independence movement.
And and some things had strong ties back to Puerto Rico itself.
Was Waas active in the area, and they had established a new Cleo within that community and took on the issue off police violence against the community,
as one of the grievances that they wanted to organize to address.
And so these other kinds of developments beyond the right are also interesting to us,
the development of an independent ideology from the dominant ideology off assimilation and incorporation instead an ideology of independence and social equality.
And and I think that’s something that persists through to the present.
So, you know, with every the,
catastrophe that has struck Puerto Rico in recent years, including, most importantly, fiscal austerity, you know, as deadly as any hurricane or earthquake, you find that the.

[57:41] Entire Puerto Rican diaspora sort of not only receives new people, but that kind of radicalism from the island spreads out across the east coast of the United States.
So so for us, the interesting thing about Blackstone Squareness period was an independent political formation.

Jake:
[58:01] Also community building embodied in Via Victoria, which you you name check for the listeners. Will you explain a little bit about what Victoria is?

Surin:
[58:10] V A Bit Victoria emerges in the late 19 sixties out of a project off urban planning aid, which is a group of urban planners,
and community residents who were addressing You know, these very problems that we had.
We were that we mentioned earlier things like unemployment, but specifically the landlord talent relationship,
and the fact that many of the homes in the area were quite dilapidated and there was a high density of residents in these homes and consequent other social ills in the space as well.
And so the victorious a project to.

[58:50] Provide that community with not only ownership over these dilapidated buildings nor but to rehabilitate the buildings and create community institutions that reflect the needs of the community.
In fact, the physical design of Via Victoria is inspired by a for rural Puerto Rican village.
The architects involved in it and selected to help develop it visited Puerto Rico in order to understand,
the sort of the physical dimensions off the community Building project,
resulted in a project that persists through to the present with ah whole range off organizations and activities, a community center in art center.
For a while, there was a radio station, and I don’t think we have these any more info shops and that kind of thing.
And so this was a very comprehensive a community development.
Unlike Dennison House and and others, you know, this was very much a community driven process, And so they were, You know, there wasn’t any external tutelage of the community.
At least that hasn’t really surfaced as a complaint in what I’ve read.

Joe:
[1:00:11] You know, one of things that’s interesting about the South End is, you know, during the sixties and seventies and eighties was, what a hotbed.
Organizing it waas on many different fronts. Because the South End today is one of the most heavily gentrified neighborhoods in the city of Boston, and for most people, it’s very unaffordable. Still would. Striking about the South End is it.
There remains a significant working class, low income population, a significant population of color?

Jake:
[1:00:41] Large tracts of substance subsidized housing and public housing.

Joe:
[1:00:43] Yeah, and in alternative forms of housing like like like be a Victoria and thes social struggles that you know in some ways seem very remote.
Help explain why we still see a significant amount of diversity class wise, ethno racially in the South End today, despite the power of gentrification and Thea affluent classes and moving in there.

Jake:
[1:01:09] In a way, it’s it’s a little Petri dish for the entire city is. We struggle with housing affordability, and that same transformation seems evident to me is happening.
Different rates all over the city. East Boston, which has long been a working class immigrant neighborhood going back.
Even when we talked about the Civil War period and the north end of that time being very Irish, you know, the East Boston’s gone through all the same transformations. It was Yankee, and then it was Irish, and then it was Italian.
Over the past couple of decades, it’s been mostly Central American immigrants and their descendants, and now it’s very rapidly gentrifying because people have discovered its waterfront property.
I guess I could follow up with a question for you about East Boston.
A site makes an appearance in the book that has, at least the modern incarnation of this site has the amazing name Navy Fuel, Pierre, Airport Edge Buffer.
But before it had that name, it waas, the East Boston immigration station.
Can you tell me what the role of these Boston immigration station was? And it’s in its heyday, and then why it makes an appearance in your book that’s really about radical history.

Joe:
[1:02:24] Maybe we’ll start off with its current name or the Navy Fuel Pierre Airport edged Buffer.
It’s hard to imagine an uglier name for a pock, but that speaks to me that says a lot about his Boston.
About 2/3 of these Boston is literally dedicated to Logan Airport, and so it’s very difficult to understand these Boston without understanding the very dominant role.
Not only the airport, but especially the employees but transportation infrastructure have been transforming that community.

[1:02:57] The East Boston immigration station opened in 1920 closed in 1954 people referred to it is Boston’s,
Ellis Island, and during that period, 1920 to 1934 thes Boston Immigration Station processed about 10% of,
the immigrant arrivals.
They came through the Port of Boston, which include the employees about 23 23,000 immigrants and eventually Mass.
Port, which owns looking into it, acquired the site, and they tore down 2011 after two, deeming it unsalvageable despite community protests.
But the Boston immigration station was important not only because of the numbers of people and process, but it sheds light on sort of the purpose of immigration control in some ways and, you know, social control more broadly.
So in May 1932 ah, living the call themselves hungry hunger marchers gathered outside the immigration station.

[1:04:00] They were part of a much larger group that had descended on Boston to go to the State House from various locations around the state to call for unemployment relief.
In the context, of course, of the Depression.
And they this break off group specifically what? These Boston? Because they wanted to protest the detention and the threatened deportation of Edith Berkman. Her nickname was the Red Flame.

[1:04:24] She was an organized with the National Textile Workers Union, and they were actively engaged in a strike in Lawrence against the owners of the mills, the wool mills.
Bergman was, ah, Polish immigrant, and she was arrested, spoke for her alleged association with Communists and by authorities in Lawrence, Kan.
She had been one of the key organizers of a strike in 1931 and that speaks to how the immigration status station among its functions was processing people.
But also it was, you know, a place of social control,
particularly geared towards non citizens who were defined or perceived as threats to the established order and perhaps the most famous person ever to be detained. There was.
People are familiar with the Ponzi scheme, right? Well, Kahlo or Charles Ponzi?
The swindler spent time at these positive immigration station during World War Two.
It served is, ah, prison for Germans and Italian soldiers captured skeet and see, and for also German, Italian and Japanese so called enemy aliens.
So these air non citizen residents of German and Italian Japanese central living in the United States but during the war seems potentially suspect, and this were detained there.

[1:05:44] Apparently Columbia Point endorsements, who was also a site for.
I mean, certainly Italian POWs were held there and reportedly some, you know, people of Italian descent with civilians as well.

Jake:
[1:05:58] I will say is a piece of trivia and a teaser for the listeners for a future episode. Columbia Point during World War Two was the site of As far as I can tell, Boston’s only soccer riot among the Italian prisoners who are being held there.

Joe:
[1:06:12] I look forward to that episode.

Jake:
[1:06:14] I’m gonna start moving toward a wrap up, but before I do, I’ll bring in one of the sites that has, ah, lot of memory attached to it.
For me, that goes back to my early history here in Boston on its in Kenmore Square, Kenmore used to be basically anchored by an all night diner called Deli House and a punk club called The Refs Keller.
So can you tell us just a little bit about the rat in its heyday? And how can more squares changed since then?

Joe:
[1:06:43] Well, given what you’ve said, in some ways, I want to talk about daily House because I ate many meals there. Uh, that, uh.

Jake:
[1:06:47] Ah oh, yeah, I could talk about a deli house all night if you want.
I like to get their potato pancakes with the applesauce.

Joe:
[1:06:55] Yeah.

Jake:
[1:06:56] Like to sit as close as I could to the velvet Elvis.

Joe:
[1:06:59] Yeah. And in some ways, the presence of your places like Delhi House and the rat in the Army Navy store That speaks to what?
Kenmore Square waas. During the sixties and the seventies and eighties.
It was sort of, Ah, it was someone of, ah, gritty, your grungy area.
Very interesting. An alternative space where all sorts of people would gather and connect.
And, you know, in the heart of it was was the rat. So the, you know, in the sixties, you know what was the formal name? It was the wrath scaler. It was, ah, rundown bar and restaurant. Right on call math.
Later. History’s a little fuzzy, but someone bought it, and then it became known as TJ’s.
Then it got sold again. In 1974 the new owner brought back the old name, the wrath scaler.
And from then until 1997 the rat, which was then, you know the name most of us knew it by.

[1:07:54] In addition to being a restaurant, it was really known as the center of Boston’s punk and alternative rock scene, and,
bands like the Ramones and The Talking Heads and the Get Kennedy’s Metallica, The Police, the Beastie Boys, R E.
M. They all play there, and then they were very popular Boston based bands the Pixies because now the Dropkick Murphys played there.
And, you know, when it closed down in 1997 it it was sad in the sense that it was.
It was the most painful manifestation, if you will, of you know not only the change in the music scene, but what broadly the changes that took the transformation Kenmore Square.
And that’s very much related to, you know, processes of gentrification and real estate speculation.
And of course, this is an important element of the story.
And part of the really important elements of the story of the transformation of Boston in Cambridge is the rise of what we might consider the university industrial complex, right and in the case, Campbell Square, particularly Boston University.
And so today, if you go by where the rat Waas well, that building’s gone, and now it’s, ah, a luxury hotel and in some ways that says it all.
But there’s a lot of great memories associated with the rat.

Jake:
[1:09:16] Yeah, I moved to Boston originally in 1997 and I got to go to all of one show at the Rat, one of the last ones before it closed.
That was the first place where Bostonians actually talked to me.
I think the first Bostonian who ah would Dane to have a conversation with me was Mr Butch, which, uh,
listeners of a certain age will know Mr Bush as sort of a profit of the punk scene, a homeless Rasta guy and everybody else that the rat was too cool for me. But Mr Bush had a nice little chat.
So the book is a People’s guide to Greater Boston. It’s available for preorder and digital download. Now, it’ll be out in physical copies later this week.
We’ll make sure the link to all the information you need to get a virtual or physical copy and this week’s show notes at hub history dot com slash 192,
Now, besides the book, if folks want to know more about you or your work, O r, keep up with you.
Is there any place online? They should be looking for that.

Surin:
[1:10:20] They’re two places right now. One would be a website that we’re about to launch.
Cold Boston book dot org’s despite name It’s rather unpretentious website, but we also have a Facebook page called Greater Boston Book,
that place where we share news comment on current events as well as highlights all of the sites.
We are addressing the book and wish we had a great.

Jake:
[1:10:50] Uh

Joe:
[1:10:51] And I should say that the Boston Book Dot or one of the things that will do on that site is post a lot of the sites that wrote about but did not include in the book sites that we will write about in the future, right?
This is an ongoing project for us, A Z said. This is we don’t see. This is the final word.
It’s part of a larger conversation. But it’s not our final word either.
We want to continue thinking about this writing and in researching on this topic that will be one place where it unfolds.

Jake:
[1:11:20] All right. We’ll also include a link to the website and the Facebook profile on this week’s show. Nuts, Joe and Sir, and I just want to say Thanks very much to both of you, for joining me today and for spending the time to talk Boston history.

Surin:
[1:11:33] Thank you, Jake.

Joe:
[1:11:34] Thank you. Jake has been a really great pleasure. We really appreciate your your interest in engagement.

Outro

Jake Intro-Outro:
[1:11:41] To learn more about a people’s history of Greater Boston, check out this week’s show notes at hub history dot com slash 192,
We’ll have a link to buy the book, of course, and will also be sure to have links to Boston book dot org’s as well as the Facebook page of the book.
And, of course, we’ll have more information about the Athenaeum Hamilton remix Virtual Talk this week’s upcoming historical event.
If you’d like to get in touch with us, you can email us at podcast of hub history dot com.
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Music

Jake Intro-Outro:
[1:12:38] That’s all for now. Stay safe out there, listeners.